Quizzes & Puzzles79 mins ago
Do Christians And Muslims Worship The Same God.
186 Answers
Hi There I saw a post on facebook that said Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God. And I copied it on to my wall. Anyway one of my really pc friends said that is not true and it is hate crime to say that and if it is not removed she will phone the police. But surely that is true. Muslims worship Allah where as Christians worship God?
Answers
Not being a user of Facebook I thought gordie had put the message up in his living room. (copied it on to my wall)
09:59 Wed 23rd Dec 2015
Khandro - "Now incredibly, to prop up an irrational and false argument, birdie attempts to demonstrate a 'Mr Nice Guy' side to Joseph Stalin!!..."
I have done no such thing. Now, incredibly, Khandro is suggesting that I'm saying that Stalin was a nice guy! That's a poor argument even for you.
Pray tell, Mr Khandro, where do I say that Stalin was a "nice guy" or where do I even suggest such a thing? I'll save you the trouble - I didn't say it. Nor did I write it and nor do I think it. Your apparent pathological hatred of atheism (caused by your complete lack of understanding of what it means to be an atheist) is causing you to accuse others of saying things they are demonstrably innocent of.
You further say, "... Huge untold numbers of bishops, priests and clerics were murdered for their refusal to accept this diktat, and you have the naivety and/or stupidity, to say this had nothing to do with atheism..."
Who is being naive and/or stupid here? If you would read my above post again, you will see the following words, "... during World War II, Stalin eased up considerably on religion. He allowed for tens of thousands of Russian Orthodox churches to reopen, adopted an official policy of tolerance toward Muslims, and re-established the hierarchy of leadership in the Russian Orthodox Church...". At no point did I ever suggest that Stalin didn't murder or have murdered members of the clergy. I know he did. It's a recorded historical fact. As to why he did it, that's open to debate. You think he killed them because he was an atheist. I say it's because he was a monster and a political ideologist with no scruples. He may have been an atheist or he may not. No one truly knows except him and he's not saying much of late. It's interesting to note that Stalin is seen as a saint in many Russian Christian Orthodox churches and is depicted as such in paintings and stained glass windows. Clearly those Churches and their congregations disagree with your explanation for his motivations. Maybe they're all naive and stupid too eh?
Your problem Khandro, is that you mistake criticism of your views to mean that the person making the criticism is taking a diametrically opposite viewpoint to your own. You take the view that if someone says that Stalin either wasn't a true atheist or that he didn't carry out the atrocities he precipitated precisely because the was an alleged atheist to mean that the person making the claim thinks that Stalin was a "nice guy". For you, it appears that the world is black and white without any grey.
Newsflash Khandro. There is no black and white in the political spectrum. It's all pretty much shades of grey. The sooner you accept that as a material fact the better.
By the way, how many feet do you have left?
I have done no such thing. Now, incredibly, Khandro is suggesting that I'm saying that Stalin was a nice guy! That's a poor argument even for you.
Pray tell, Mr Khandro, where do I say that Stalin was a "nice guy" or where do I even suggest such a thing? I'll save you the trouble - I didn't say it. Nor did I write it and nor do I think it. Your apparent pathological hatred of atheism (caused by your complete lack of understanding of what it means to be an atheist) is causing you to accuse others of saying things they are demonstrably innocent of.
You further say, "... Huge untold numbers of bishops, priests and clerics were murdered for their refusal to accept this diktat, and you have the naivety and/or stupidity, to say this had nothing to do with atheism..."
Who is being naive and/or stupid here? If you would read my above post again, you will see the following words, "... during World War II, Stalin eased up considerably on religion. He allowed for tens of thousands of Russian Orthodox churches to reopen, adopted an official policy of tolerance toward Muslims, and re-established the hierarchy of leadership in the Russian Orthodox Church...". At no point did I ever suggest that Stalin didn't murder or have murdered members of the clergy. I know he did. It's a recorded historical fact. As to why he did it, that's open to debate. You think he killed them because he was an atheist. I say it's because he was a monster and a political ideologist with no scruples. He may have been an atheist or he may not. No one truly knows except him and he's not saying much of late. It's interesting to note that Stalin is seen as a saint in many Russian Christian Orthodox churches and is depicted as such in paintings and stained glass windows. Clearly those Churches and their congregations disagree with your explanation for his motivations. Maybe they're all naive and stupid too eh?
Your problem Khandro, is that you mistake criticism of your views to mean that the person making the criticism is taking a diametrically opposite viewpoint to your own. You take the view that if someone says that Stalin either wasn't a true atheist or that he didn't carry out the atrocities he precipitated precisely because the was an alleged atheist to mean that the person making the claim thinks that Stalin was a "nice guy". For you, it appears that the world is black and white without any grey.
Newsflash Khandro. There is no black and white in the political spectrum. It's all pretty much shades of grey. The sooner you accept that as a material fact the better.
By the way, how many feet do you have left?
Has it occurred to you Khandro that Stalin had members of the clergy murdered because the Church is/was a significant power base? The Church (and I use the term as loosely as possible for the purposes of this post to include, Islam, Hindu, etc.) in a great many countries represents an enormous power base. The leaders of such organisations wield great power over the people. They can, and in many countries do, dictate what the general public think and therefore influence what they do. Now, if you're a despotic dictator, religious or not, who wants to rule a country without anyone questioning your proclamations, doesn't it make sense to eviscerate your ideological and political opponents even if those opponents share the same fundamental religion as you?
The answer to that question is: yes. We see it today. We see muslims murdering other muslims because one is a Shia and the other is Sunni. We see Catholics murdering Protestants and vica-versa. This is not about religion or the lack of it - it's about power. Pure and simple. It's about the ability of one group of people - or sometimes just one person - lording it over another in an attempt to dominate and control that group.
Religion - and the lack of it - plays second fiddle the greed, selfishness and evil of individuals and groups. You are blind to that reality because for some reason you have decided that atheists are evil. They must be evil because they don't believe in some form of god. That is your argument in a nutshell. You attempt to prop up this ludicrously absurd argument by suggesting atheists are inherently unpleasant and by extension, evil and you attempt to justify this illogical calamity by throwing up examples of past dictators and by claiming that they did what they did *precisely* because they didn't believe in creator deities and therefore must hate those who do believe in such things.
The level of illogical hoop-jumping is all too common amongst those people who have a psychological need to believe in a god. They must believe that atheists are unpleasant and evil. For if they are not, what's the point of religion? If atheists can be good, moral people, how can god be real? Only the faithful can be 'good' in the mind of the theist. In that mind, atheism *must* be immoral, evil, vexatious, naive, stupid and cruel. This is the trap you have fallen into Khandro.
The answer to that question is: yes. We see it today. We see muslims murdering other muslims because one is a Shia and the other is Sunni. We see Catholics murdering Protestants and vica-versa. This is not about religion or the lack of it - it's about power. Pure and simple. It's about the ability of one group of people - or sometimes just one person - lording it over another in an attempt to dominate and control that group.
Religion - and the lack of it - plays second fiddle the greed, selfishness and evil of individuals and groups. You are blind to that reality because for some reason you have decided that atheists are evil. They must be evil because they don't believe in some form of god. That is your argument in a nutshell. You attempt to prop up this ludicrously absurd argument by suggesting atheists are inherently unpleasant and by extension, evil and you attempt to justify this illogical calamity by throwing up examples of past dictators and by claiming that they did what they did *precisely* because they didn't believe in creator deities and therefore must hate those who do believe in such things.
The level of illogical hoop-jumping is all too common amongst those people who have a psychological need to believe in a god. They must believe that atheists are unpleasant and evil. For if they are not, what's the point of religion? If atheists can be good, moral people, how can god be real? Only the faithful can be 'good' in the mind of the theist. In that mind, atheism *must* be immoral, evil, vexatious, naive, stupid and cruel. This is the trap you have fallen into Khandro.
Interesting how you three need each other's support and no one else seems to join you in your illusions. Your hypocrisy in believing that the slaughter of thousands of priests and the forced closure of thousands of churches by the bolsheviks had nothing at all to do with the eradication of religion for the creation of the Marxist/Leninist desire for an atheist society had nothing whatsoever to do with the propagation of atheism.
Such hypocrisy would have stood you in good stead for high-ranking posts during the terrors, Birdie, you might have even made it to become head of the secret police.
Such hypocrisy would have stood you in good stead for high-ranking posts during the terrors, Birdie, you might have even made it to become head of the secret police.
-- answer removed --
Yes, you would have done very well under Bolshevism. A long article on The Bolshevik persecution of the Catholic church concludes;
"Therefore, between 1917 and 1924 the Soviet government had ruthlessly reduced the Catholic population in Russia, had destroyed its hierarchy, had instilled fear into the laity, had taught its children atheism, and had completed one of the most savage attacks on religion in the modern world."
"Therefore, between 1917 and 1924 the Soviet government had ruthlessly reduced the Catholic population in Russia, had destroyed its hierarchy, had instilled fear into the laity, had taught its children atheism, and had completed one of the most savage attacks on religion in the modern world."
Khandro, I’m not surprised you neglected to provide a link to that paragraph when the text outlines the Decree of Separation of Church and State, which Church leaders refused to sign, and continues ……
//Civil War in Russia (1918-1920) between the Red and White Armies, and the Polish-Soviet War (1919-1920) often found the Catholic clergy on the side of the Soviet opponents.//
http://
As has been said here – and absolutely correctly - there was rather more than ‘atheism’ going on in Russia.
Utterly disingenuous of you, Khandro - and still you continue to insult. Quite shameful.
//Civil War in Russia (1918-1920) between the Red and White Armies, and the Polish-Soviet War (1919-1920) often found the Catholic clergy on the side of the Soviet opponents.//
http://
As has been said here – and absolutely correctly - there was rather more than ‘atheism’ going on in Russia.
Utterly disingenuous of you, Khandro - and still you continue to insult. Quite shameful.
Throughout the history of the Soviet Union (1922-1991), Soviet authorities suppressed and persecuted various forms of Christianity to different extents depending on the particular era. Soviet policy, based on the ideology of Marxism–Leninism, made atheism the official doctrine of the Soviet Union. Marxism–Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and the elimination of religious beliefs.[1]
The state was committed to the destruction of religion,[2][3] and destroyed churches, mosques and temples, ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with atheistic teachings, and generally promoted atheism as the truth that society should accept.[4][5] The total number of Christian victims of Soviet state atheist policies, has been estimated to range between 12-20 million.[6][7][8]
Wikipedia
The state was committed to the destruction of religion,[2][3] and destroyed churches, mosques and temples, ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with atheistic teachings, and generally promoted atheism as the truth that society should accept.[4][5] The total number of Christian victims of Soviet state atheist policies, has been estimated to range between 12-20 million.[6][7][8]
Wikipedia
Khandro .... listen .... no one denies that. What they do deny is your contention that the whole of the Soviet regime emanated from atheism. It very clearly didn’t. Restriction was imposed upon just about every freedom known to man – but that wasn’t as a result of the atheistic tendencies of the leaders, but rather of their obsession with controlling the masses via a warped, cruel, crazy, inhuman, unworkable philosophy! Yes, priests were killed – but so were dissidents in every other walk of life from factory workers to free-thinking intellectuals – in fact anyone who opposed the grotesque Soviet ideology. This was not confined to religion and it was not done in the name of atheism…. but actually, I think you know that.
Khandro - "... Birdie, you might have even made it to become head of the secret police..."
And there we have the hatred, front and centre. It shines through like a beacon. A beacon made from fear, misunderstanding and unadulterated hatred. Well done Khandro for exposing your rotten core.
Your hatred of atheism has spilled over into new territory. Now you're accusing me of being like the "secret police". I could dissect this phrase and explain how you're now accusing me of holding Nazi sympathising thoughts and/or Communist tendencies... but what would be the point? You won't listen and you won't understand. You won't understand because you cannot allow yourself to understand. You have decided that a disbelief in god is essentially evil. From this premise, all your other thoughts and arguments emanate. And since they are borne from your false premise, your conclusions are all going to be inevitably erroneous.
In computing, there is an acronym: GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out. Your 'input' is that 'atheists are evil'. From there, you run your mental programme and the 'output' is that nothing good can come from atheists or atheism. Boom! You've proved your premise! You're a genius...
Except that you're not a genius and you have proved nothing. In fact, you have damaged the very cause you seem to be advocating.
You are a man who has plugged garbage into a logical equation and thinks he's received gold... when all he has received is iron pyrite. You're panning for gold and getting worthless dirt. But you're so stubborn that you're still trying convince others that you've found Gold, real Gold...
In short, I used to think that you had something interesting to say. It is clear to me now that you don't. You are a vacuous, insulting waste of time.
And there we have the hatred, front and centre. It shines through like a beacon. A beacon made from fear, misunderstanding and unadulterated hatred. Well done Khandro for exposing your rotten core.
Your hatred of atheism has spilled over into new territory. Now you're accusing me of being like the "secret police". I could dissect this phrase and explain how you're now accusing me of holding Nazi sympathising thoughts and/or Communist tendencies... but what would be the point? You won't listen and you won't understand. You won't understand because you cannot allow yourself to understand. You have decided that a disbelief in god is essentially evil. From this premise, all your other thoughts and arguments emanate. And since they are borne from your false premise, your conclusions are all going to be inevitably erroneous.
In computing, there is an acronym: GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out. Your 'input' is that 'atheists are evil'. From there, you run your mental programme and the 'output' is that nothing good can come from atheists or atheism. Boom! You've proved your premise! You're a genius...
Except that you're not a genius and you have proved nothing. In fact, you have damaged the very cause you seem to be advocating.
You are a man who has plugged garbage into a logical equation and thinks he's received gold... when all he has received is iron pyrite. You're panning for gold and getting worthless dirt. But you're so stubborn that you're still trying convince others that you've found Gold, real Gold...
In short, I used to think that you had something interesting to say. It is clear to me now that you don't. You are a vacuous, insulting waste of time.
Khandro, I think you did ….
//the mass slaughter was because of their opposition to atheism and it was carried out by those wishing to force atheism upon them.//
…. but if I’m mistaken, then you agree with me in that the slaughters didn’t result simply from a determination to impose atheism upon the populace.
//the mass slaughter was because of their opposition to atheism and it was carried out by those wishing to force atheism upon them.//
…. but if I’m mistaken, then you agree with me in that the slaughters didn’t result simply from a determination to impose atheism upon the populace.
naomi;// then you agree with me in that the slaughters didn’t result simply from a determination to impose atheism upon the populace.//
Of course I agree with you, and you know very well I have never said such a thing.
This short article should make good New Year reading btw, and I'm grateful to him for drawing my attention to that excellent quote of Dostoyevsky's
https:/
Of course I agree with you, and you know very well I have never said such a thing.
This short article should make good New Year reading btw, and I'm grateful to him for drawing my attention to that excellent quote of Dostoyevsky's
https:/
Khandro, //Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong produced the kind of mass slaughter that no Inquisitor could possibly match. Collectively these atheist tyrants murdered more than 100 million people. //
Firstly Hitler wasn’t an atheist, but that said, none of that can be attributed solely to atheism. How many more times do you need it explained to you? Dostoyevsky’s quote “Excellent”? Why? It’s patent nonsense.
Firstly Hitler wasn’t an atheist, but that said, none of that can be attributed solely to atheism. How many more times do you need it explained to you? Dostoyevsky’s quote “Excellent”? Why? It’s patent nonsense.
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