Is God Responsible – Or Isn’T He?

[naomi24]

When people, especially the young, fall foul of unavoidable diseases and die, the religious often justify the loss by saying “It’s God’s will”, and yet when asked why they think a loving God would have willed that disease on the victim, they say “It’s not God’s fault”. How does that work?

[Khandro]

naomi; The thing is; if one denies the existence of Gods, one really has to replace that belief with something, and as Nietzsche scornfully pointed out, replacing a transcendent God with an omnipotent humanity alters surprisingly little.
We could of course follow clown Dawkins' encomiums on living a good life as outlined in his re-writing of the 10 commandments. Gone was all that tiresome thou-shalt-not-stuff, and in it's place we had new directives on how to live, you know the sort of thing; get out a bit, see lots of people, make sure you put your rubbish in the correct recycling bags etc.
OK I guess, but I don't find it exactly sets the soul ablaze.

[mikey4444]

Khandro...not sure why we need to replace a supernatural God with anything at all ? Why can't we make our own minds up on issues, rather than look to some higher being to make our decisions for us ?

There is nothing particularly unique about the Ten Commandments...after all, not killing and not stealing is just good basic common sense. Lots of non-Christian religions around the world seem to manage quite well without tablets of stone, or tablets of gold if you are a Mormon.

I don't kill or steal because they wouldn't be terribly nice things to do, not because some mythical figure thousands of years ago told me not to. Why can't religious people just follow their instincts, rather than keep looking over their shoulders at what their religious leaders are doing ? Common sense isn't rocket science is it ?

[naomi24]

Khandro, I’ll take it you do believe that the God of Abraham was the omnipotent, omniscient, creator of the universe then – despite the evidence to the contrary. Buddhism? What an old fraud you are, Khandro. ;o)

//as Nietzsche scornfully pointed out, replacing a transcendent God with an omnipotent humanity alters surprisingly little.//

Scornfully - and utterly stupidly. Anyone who thinks that humanity can ever be considered omnipotent is a fool.

ps. You constantly quote other people – a bit like Goodlife really. Do you ever have an original thought?

[maggiebee]

Of course he is responsible!! According to most on this site he is responsible for every ill in the world - if not him then his followers. He brings disease, famine, flood, murder, abuse, war, death, poverty etc. etc. He has always been responsible and always will be! Great get out clause for man - they can wash their hands of absolutely everything!

[naomi24]

Maggie, I posted something for you on this thread at 12:26 Fri 25th Jul 2014. Don't know if you've seen it.

[maggiebee]

Thank you Naomi, I'd missed that one. Very much appreciated. xx

[Khandro]

mikey; The problem with us all applying 'common sense', is that everyone's idea of it is not the same. Everyone engaged in the present Middle East conflict for example, believes what they are doing makes common sense.
You don't kill, not because it makes 'common sense', but because you have never had to do it - presumably you have never been in the armed forces.

[mikey4444]

Whether I have been in the armed forces or not is entirely irrelevant to this thread Khandro. Most of us don't need to believe in any gods, as our own moral code is enough without have one imposed on us. If more people had common sense, and we less gods, the world we definitely be a better place !

Religions may leave us with pretty artifacts and impressive buildings, but it also leaves us knee-deep in bodies. It always has, and it is still doing it now.

Going straight back to Naomi's original post, either God is really here and he's responsible for all this ***, or he doesn't exist....I know which makes better common sense to me.

Remember "suffer little children to come unto me" ?...what an obscenity that is. If that is how God is supposed to work, I want no part of it.

[Khandro]

Total number of deaths in WW1; 7,996,888
Total number of deaths in WW2; 52,199,262

No element of religion in either of these conflicts, or in those vast numbers later, in Korea, Cambodia, Viet Nam etc. Go figure.

[Hypognosis]

@Khandro,

but atheism was exceptionally rare then, wasn't it? So atheism cannot be singled out as their root cause.

Meanwhile, all those combatants subscribed to religions which mandate that they do not kill. But they went and did it anyway. Was that God's will or God's fault?

[Hypognosis]

I'll see your WWII death toll and raise you by one 1918 flu pandemic
500 million infected, 50-100 million fatalities.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic

Even a couple of the "Our Lady of Fatima" witnesses were killed by it, of all people, while still in their childhood.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima
What had they done to 'deserve' that?

[naomi24]

Khandro, //Go figure. //

What do you want us to figure?

[Khandro]

naomi; I want you to 'figure out' the absurdity of mikey's claim that religions have left us 'knee-deep in bodies' in the light of for example the Stalin purges in the Russian republics prior to and continuing after World War II which killed roughly 40 to 60 million people nearly wiping out every Christian church under Stalin's domain, and following World War II, China saw to the end of more than 24 million lives during the first ten years of Mao's takeover and another 25 million killed or intentionally starved between 1959 and 1962, plus an additional 22 million killings in the 1970's Great Proletariat Cultural Revolution, and Cambodia suffered more than 2 million killed in its own bloody transition to anti-religious communism. This list can be added to almost unlimitedly.
Historically, the appalling death toll of humanity is based overwhelmingly on political, secular and tribal divisions, not religion.

[anneasquith]

its gods will, its not gods fault,,.. as a '' religious '' these are not phrases im familiar with.!!!

[mibn2cweus]

Belief in a divine overseer of reality that has any interest in or control over our destiny is not conducive to acknowledgement of responsibility for our own lives, thoughts and actions. Religion paves the way for a society to fall victim to the delegation of personal responsibility to those who are happy and perfectly willing to do their thinking for them and to channel blind obedience towards a purpose and end they dare not contemplate.

There is no escape from personal responsibility nor the consequences of attempting to do so . . . however attractive some might consider the prospect.

[Hypognosis]

@Khandro

it would be facile of me to say that, if they hadn't been strong adherents of their religion, would Stalin have killed them anyway? Or not?

It might be worth exploring the reasons why they were singled out for attack. Was it the power structure within the church and the influence it held over worshippers? How was that of any threat to the leadership? Were they organising resistance against Stalin and his cronies?

Spreading of food and wealth to the poor - you'd think Christianity and communism would be a perfect fit?

[Hypognosis]

Morning mibs.

Good reading of naomi's original question and an answer I wish I could have come up with. :-)

[naomi24]

anneasquith, you are now.

Khandro, unless you’re saying that one negates the other there is nothing to ‘figure’. By your own admission the atrocities you list were not committed with the sole intention of eradicating religion, but the wars fought and the atrocities committed in the name of religion were – and still are - just that.

My question is simple, and we’ve gone all around the houses, but as yet no explanation has been forthcoming.

[Khandro]

Hypo; This is neither the place, nor am I the person, to give history lessons on the USSR. Try here if you want;
http://www.ukessays.com/essays/history/stalin-becoming-the-leader-of-ussr-history-essay.php

[anneasquith]

not in real life im not.