Happy Christmas, Elderman!

[beckersjay]

Elderman, I don't always agree with the things you say but I hate the way you are treated by many ABers. I hope you and your family have a good, peaceful and loving Christmas.

[beckersjay]

Thank you boxtops!
I would almost like to follow up some of Beso's and other arguments but it would take hours and I have better things to do such as preparing for our family Christmas. In any case, the main point of this post was to send a rare kind thought to Elderman rather than to initiate a deep theological/anti theological argument!

[LazyGun]

@beckersjay - you are entitled to your opinion, and of course if you wish to offer elderman the compliments of the season that is entirely up to you.

You may also believe that "For the record, birdie, jomifl et al, I do not believe that anyone's beliefs or faith deserve derision if they are sincerely held. Including yours, of course. And incidentally, Happy Christmas to you all, or happy whatever else it is you celebrate. "

I do not believe the same. Beliefs, ideas, faiths are not sacrosanct, worthy of automatic deference. Some individuals might be, but they need to earn that cachet.

Regardless of whether or not someones beliefs or faith is sincere or not, should they choose to sermonise in public and place themselves and their beliefs on a pedastel, they deserve all the derision, all the rebuttal, all the logical argument they get. Should that selfsame person ignore the counter-arguments and continue to sermonise, then that needs to be challenged as well.Sorry, but thats my sincerely held belief ;)

[ummmm]

Well I thank God for the day I was saved :-)

Raise a glass to Naomi xx

[joko]

it is not so much his faith and beliefs people are deriding - its the way he goes about preaching it on here that people take issue with ...

[beckersjay]

I don't preach or sermonize but this is what I get:
'Those who share your maligned illusion should not expect the slightest respect for your twisted beliefs'.
Since no-one knows anything about my beliefs except that I respect those of other people, I rest my case.

[birdie1971]

Beckersjay - “... For the record, birdie, jomifl et al, I do not believe that anyone's beliefs or faith deserve derision if they are sincerely held. Including yours, of course...”

What, even the beliefs of a madman? Should those beliefs be respected? To take an extreme example, what if the person in question sincerely believed that the people he murdered in this life would become his slaves in the next? Should we respect his beliefs? Or are there limits to the beliefs we should respect and if so, what are those limits?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer


Unquestioning acceptance of a person's belief is not necessarily a good thing. In fact, questioning a person's belief can only be a positive thing as it gets everything out in the open so that there are no secrets.

I suspect the reason you made the above statement is that you don't like the fact that we live in a society where your beliefs can be called into question. Unfortunately for the religious, the stranglehold on debate that the Church has had in Europe for the last thousand years or so is finally being prised from its cold hands. Not surprisingly, the very people who were quite happy bullying others into following the Church's doctrines are not happy now that their core beliefs and teachings can be scrutinised and openly criticised for what they are – deeply flawed mumbo-jumbo born of ignorance and fear.

[beckersjay]

I have nothing whatsoever against questioning beliefs - it's the derision I'm not keen on. Think that's my last word on this thread - I'm off to ponder how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...
I wish you a merry Christmas and a happy New Year

[beso]

beckersjay //I would almost like to follow up some of Beso's and other arguments but it would take hours //

You mean you would like to take up if you had any sensible counter.

Of course you have a full explanation. I have heard it before. The people living their were wicked and needed to be killed as is evidenced by the fact that God said so.

God didn't kill them Himself as He could have with just a thought a but used the Hebrews and their swords to do the job. The reason for this choice is one of God's mysterious decisions for which He has no compulsion to divulge to us.

[beckersjay]

Beso//Of course you have a full explanation. I have heard it before. The people living their were wicked and needed to be killed as is evidenced by the fact that God said so. //
That sort of offensive - and delusional - remark is one of the reasons why I do not think it would be productive to attempt any sort of reasoned argument with you. I have no idea what strange image you have of my beliefs but I am sure that image is a product of your prejudices and not based on any sort of reality.

[beso]

Not a delusion but exactly what it says in the Bible. Maybe you should try reading it some time?

[beckersjay]

What makes you think I haven't? Of course you are assuming I am Christian rather than Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Spiritualist, Moslem, agnostic......... - or even an atheist who doesn't feel threatened by the fact that other people believe in things I do not.

[Baldric]

Just had a look at R & S, twice, that's first and last.

[askyourgran]

Happy Christmas beckersjay, it is such a pity that these pygmies like beso and those with verbal diahorrhea (sp) aka birdie do not have the common decency to give or receive a good hearted greeting. Small minded ignorant people, with grandoise ideas.

[beckersjay]

Thank you askyourgran - you are a breath of fresh air. Wish you all the best for the new year.

[beso]

beckersjay has clearly not read the Bbile or they would not accuse me of delusional remarks when I report what is actually written in the book.

It they were of another faith and unfamiliar with the Bbile it would seem particularly arrogant of them to make such a claim.

[beckersjay]

Beso, my 'delusional' comment referred to your assumption that what you described would be my argument. I note with amusement your comment that people of another faith would be 'particularly arrogant' to make a claim about the Bible - but it's OK for an atheist, I assume??

[beso]

Perhaps then you could explain your defence of the glorification of widespread genocide as is clearly described in the Bible. It would be refreshing to hear some explanation beyond "they deserved it".

[beckersjay]

Beso, I think you have seriously lost the plot! When did I start glorifying widespread genocide? As I recall, you were the one who came up with those words and then attributed them to me!

[beso]

When you defend those who exalt the Bible you defend the gloriification of genocide as unambiguously described within it.

[jomifl]

beckersjay, I hope you had an enjoyable christmas, AB notwithstanding. I think you have put words in my mouth, I have not treated Elderman with derision on this thread or any other and if it appears that I have then it was not my intention. Please re-read my previous posting.