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Bbc News, Integrtion Has Not Worked With Muslims
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just heard it on news, they were talking about muslims integrating into germany and merkel now has a massive task on her hands to find a solution to the problem, they talked about the problems that faced france and jaques chirac banning of the burhka etc when he was in charge, german security experts are now saying that they believe isis teams are active in germany asfter coming into the country disquised as refugees , wow really !! .
for me , the fact is that muslims cant intergrate fully with western society, i mean look what they are taught in their koran , such verses here - “Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous.” Quran 9:123 also here - Quran 8:59-60 / Quran 2:286 / Quran 3:147 / Quran 8:12 /
“Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another…” Quran 5:51
so there you have it in black and white, how to hell can these people fit in with us, i cannot see any solution to the problem.
merkel and co have only added to the problems .
for me , the fact is that muslims cant intergrate fully with western society, i mean look what they are taught in their koran , such verses here - “Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous.” Quran 9:123 also here - Quran 8:59-60 / Quran 2:286 / Quran 3:147 / Quran 8:12 /
“Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another…” Quran 5:51
so there you have it in black and white, how to hell can these people fit in with us, i cannot see any solution to the problem.
merkel and co have only added to the problems .
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Naomi - //andy-hughes, two days in succession I've been obliged to ask you not to be rude to me. //
If you wish to assume - unaided - that my references to 'experts' on here refer only to you, then you must accept the point I made, which was not being rude in the slightest.
If you prefer not to be tied in with 'the experts', then you know what to do.
If you wish to assume - unaided - that my references to 'experts' on here refer only to you, then you must accept the point I made, which was not being rude in the slightest.
If you prefer not to be tied in with 'the experts', then you know what to do.
Andy-hughes, you just can’t help yourself, can you. You copied and pasted my post so next time you’re not referring to me perhaps you’ll copy and paste someone else’s.
Back to the subject.
Christianity does involve the Old Testament. However, the Old Testament doesn’t command its adherents to kill anyone who disagrees with them. Furthermore, although the Bible does command death to homosexuals – and to disobedient children for that matter –those instructions are, these days at least, ignored, possibly because, unlike the Koran which is considered to be the direct word of God and hence beyond criticism and unchangeable, the bible is deemed to have been written by men inspired by God and therefore is open to interpretation and modification. Additionally, whilst the Hebrews were commanded to slaughter the inhabitants of their Promised Land, and did so with relish, unlike Islamists they didn’t continue to seek to conquer other nations and other civilisations. The Jews don’t want converts. Islam does – and for them nothing less will do.
Back to the subject.
Christianity does involve the Old Testament. However, the Old Testament doesn’t command its adherents to kill anyone who disagrees with them. Furthermore, although the Bible does command death to homosexuals – and to disobedient children for that matter –those instructions are, these days at least, ignored, possibly because, unlike the Koran which is considered to be the direct word of God and hence beyond criticism and unchangeable, the bible is deemed to have been written by men inspired by God and therefore is open to interpretation and modification. Additionally, whilst the Hebrews were commanded to slaughter the inhabitants of their Promised Land, and did so with relish, unlike Islamists they didn’t continue to seek to conquer other nations and other civilisations. The Jews don’t want converts. Islam does – and for them nothing less will do.
Naomi - //Christianity does involve the Old Testament. However, the Old Testament doesn’t command its adherents to kill anyone who disagrees with them. Furthermore, although the Bible does command death to homosexuals – and to disobedient children for that matter –those instructions are, these days at least, ignored, possibly because, unlike the Koran which is considered to be the direct word of God and hence beyond criticism and unchangeable, the bible is deemed to have been written by men inspired by God and therefore is open to interpretation and modification. Additionally, whilst the Hebrews were commanded to slaughter the inhabitants of their Promised Land, and did so with relish, unlike Islamists they didn’t continue to seek to conquer other nations and other civilisations. The Jews don’t want converts. Islam does – and for them nothing less will do. //
The seriously tenuous argument which you offer with regularity - that the Bible is 'open to interpretation', and the Koran is 'the word of God' simply does not represent reason.
All religious texts are open to interpretation, and are interpreted by people who read them.
The notion that all Christians take the bits of the bible that suit, and run with those, and that Muslims take the Koran totally literally, and behave accordingly, takes an invalid assumption that the followers of each faith must work on the basis of your decided methods.
The simple fact is, human nature is at play here, as it is with everyone who is human.
That means that some Christians will take the Bible as something to followed slavishly, and the vast majority will take some of it, and adapt it to suit what makes them happy and comfortable.
Where your argument fails is that some Muslims will do exactly the same with the Koran, and the vast majority will do the same, take some of it and adapt it.
The idea that Christians are somehow absolved from the violent aspects of their text, and Muslims are not, is frankly without foundation.
The evidence that 99% or Christians and 99% of Muslims are not plucking out offensive eyes, or murdering infidels proves my point.
Fanaticism propped up by religion is a sad fact of life, but to parlay it into the notion that Muslims want everyone to see the world as they do is simply not a sustainable argument, however 'expertly' it may be argued.
The seriously tenuous argument which you offer with regularity - that the Bible is 'open to interpretation', and the Koran is 'the word of God' simply does not represent reason.
All religious texts are open to interpretation, and are interpreted by people who read them.
The notion that all Christians take the bits of the bible that suit, and run with those, and that Muslims take the Koran totally literally, and behave accordingly, takes an invalid assumption that the followers of each faith must work on the basis of your decided methods.
The simple fact is, human nature is at play here, as it is with everyone who is human.
That means that some Christians will take the Bible as something to followed slavishly, and the vast majority will take some of it, and adapt it to suit what makes them happy and comfortable.
Where your argument fails is that some Muslims will do exactly the same with the Koran, and the vast majority will do the same, take some of it and adapt it.
The idea that Christians are somehow absolved from the violent aspects of their text, and Muslims are not, is frankly without foundation.
The evidence that 99% or Christians and 99% of Muslims are not plucking out offensive eyes, or murdering infidels proves my point.
Fanaticism propped up by religion is a sad fact of life, but to parlay it into the notion that Muslims want everyone to see the world as they do is simply not a sustainable argument, however 'expertly' it may be argued.
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@andy_hughes
//
Where your argument fails is that some Muslims will do exactly the same with the Koran, and the vast majority will do the same, take some of it and adapt it.
//
Until the Taliban, or Al Qaeda, or ISIS start bossing them around, in which case they all fall into line, like so. Who wants to be the tall poppy and stand up for casually disregarding this bit or that bit?
//
Where your argument fails is that some Muslims will do exactly the same with the Koran, and the vast majority will do the same, take some of it and adapt it.
//
Until the Taliban, or Al Qaeda, or ISIS start bossing them around, in which case they all fall into line, like so. Who wants to be the tall poppy and stand up for casually disregarding this bit or that bit?
Naomi - //andy-hughes, //I will be declining your offer to pin the entire tenets of the Muslim belief system on the opinion of one individual Muslim//
Better still then, conduct a survey - just for the benefit of your own education. //
It is exactly that high-handed attitude towards my 'education' that means I decline to debate with you. I find your attitude arrogant and your arguments baseless, none the less so for the pseudo-expertise with which you voice them.
Others on here may be content to be talked down to you by you and your coterie of 'experts' - I am not one of them
Better still then, conduct a survey - just for the benefit of your own education. //
It is exactly that high-handed attitude towards my 'education' that means I decline to debate with you. I find your attitude arrogant and your arguments baseless, none the less so for the pseudo-expertise with which you voice them.
Others on here may be content to be talked down to you by you and your coterie of 'experts' - I am not one of them
Hypognosis - //Until the Taliban, or Al Qaeda, or ISIS start bossing them around, in which case they all fall into line, like so. //
If that was true, then the sheer weight of numbers would mean that the Muslim fanatics would have taken over the entire planet some years ago.
The fact that they remain a tiny minority even in their own countries points to the invalidity of your point.
If that was true, then the sheer weight of numbers would mean that the Muslim fanatics would have taken over the entire planet some years ago.
The fact that they remain a tiny minority even in their own countries points to the invalidity of your point.
Naomi - //andy-hughes, can't think what you mean. By your own admission Islam is not a subject you are educated in.//
No, you can't - a lack of self-awareness is the root of your problem.
I am not wasting any more time diverting this thread with pointless argument with you.
If you have to have the last word, feel free to post it, confident that it will not receive any response.
No, you can't - a lack of self-awareness is the root of your problem.
I am not wasting any more time diverting this thread with pointless argument with you.
If you have to have the last word, feel free to post it, confident that it will not receive any response.
Hypo; //Who wants to be the tall poppy and stand up for casually disregarding this bit or that bit?//
Many do, and their numbers are increasing, try Hamad Abdel-Samad for one. The trouble is some *s*h*le of a cleric puts a fatwa on them and that is why should all support them in any way we can.
I would personally like to see the arrogant, ignorant, pomposity of most Muslims publicly ridiculed.
Many do, and their numbers are increasing, try Hamad Abdel-Samad for one. The trouble is some *s*h*le of a cleric puts a fatwa on them and that is why should all support them in any way we can.
I would personally like to see the arrogant, ignorant, pomposity of most Muslims publicly ridiculed.
Hypognosis - //But people associate arrogance with every time they were right about a thing. By drawing attention to it, you make naomi seem more and more right about things.
It's the one ad hominem which works in reverse.
Trouble is, now you'll have to counter the argument, not the debater. //
It is as pointless countering the argument as it is the debater - neither produce anything of value, which is why I am declining to indulge either any further.
If you want to have a go, be my guest, but don't expect to get anywhere!
It's the one ad hominem which works in reverse.
Trouble is, now you'll have to counter the argument, not the debater. //
It is as pointless countering the argument as it is the debater - neither produce anything of value, which is why I am declining to indulge either any further.
If you want to have a go, be my guest, but don't expect to get anywhere!
@andy
//
If that was true, then the sheer weight of numbers would mean that the Muslim fanatics would have taken over the entire planet some years ago.
//
Muslims are a *minority* group, across most of the world.
Extremists are minority within that minority. You must realise that references to Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS point to a specific geographical region of the planet, not the whole planet?
Sheesh!
//
If that was true, then the sheer weight of numbers would mean that the Muslim fanatics would have taken over the entire planet some years ago.
//
Muslims are a *minority* group, across most of the world.
Extremists are minority within that minority. You must realise that references to Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS point to a specific geographical region of the planet, not the whole planet?
Sheesh!
Khandro - //I would personally like to see the arrogant, ignorant, pomposity of most Muslims publicly ridiculed. //
On what do you base that perceived attitude?
Speaking as an English person, I see that arrogant ignorant pomposity to be far more prevalent in the Christian community.
Take the EDL as an example, and move on from there.
On what do you base that perceived attitude?
Speaking as an English person, I see that arrogant ignorant pomposity to be far more prevalent in the Christian community.
Take the EDL as an example, and move on from there.
jambutty - //I know Naomi is more than able to defend herself, BUT I find you calling her arrogant breathtaking in the extreme. Do you really think you are not ?! //
I freely admit that I can be on occasions, a failing of mine.
But when it is pointed out, I am happy to acknowledge it, and attempt to address it - that is the difference.
But as I have said, I am not prepared to carry on this off-thread spat, I have withdrawn from that aspect of the debate.
I do take your point, thank you for making it.
I freely admit that I can be on occasions, a failing of mine.
But when it is pointed out, I am happy to acknowledge it, and attempt to address it - that is the difference.
But as I have said, I am not prepared to carry on this off-thread spat, I have withdrawn from that aspect of the debate.
I do take your point, thank you for making it.
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