Witchcraft

[pdust]

do you believe in it?

i was gonna make a new account to talk about this so you didnt all think i was mad but the fact that we would have had the same avatar could have been a dead giveaway :P

anyway..... ive always had lucid dreams and often had what people refer to as sleep paralysis but ive always thought there was more to it than your brains awake but your bodies not kind of thing....if there was just the sense of paralysis i could believe it but the sense that something evil is in the room with me makes me believe its more than that... also i had this long before i heard others had it and after reading about it i find it completely weird that people throughout the ages from all different backgrounds and cultures can have the same experience of an evil thing near them

to cut a long story short a fortnight ago i gave someone a personal belonging of mine then later joked he was going to do voodoo on me

since then i have had night terrors a lot worse than ever before.... im not stressed, i dont touch alcohol or any drugs at all.... i spoke with a friend whos alim and he advised me to among other things play a recording of quran while i sleep... i did this for 2 or 3 nights and nothing happened. last night i forgot to put it on and it was back full force

so my question is simple.... do you believe witchcraft exists?

[jim360]

No, not really -- in many ways it's effectively the same idea, only with God as an alien. Neither theory is especially testable, therefore at the very least it is not Science. And, therefore, is crackpot coming from a respected scientist.

[doctordb]

My point exactly sharingan. I do rubbish the belief's of those who believe in magic but contrary to the self importance of many of those believers they are not the 'opinions of everyone else'.

[naomi24]

Jim, //Neither theory is especially testable, therefore at the very least it is not Science. And, therefore, is crackpot coming from a respected scientist. //

Whilst neither theory is 'testable', there is rather a lot here on earth to suggest his theory may not be so 'crackpot' after all. This is a subject, that alongside the history of religion, I've studied for years, and I actually agree with him to a certain extent.

[Sharingan]

Drb- I pointed out that there were many Christians, Jews and Muslims who were Nobel prize winners and pointed out that most people don't sl ag them off for their beliefs whereupon you said you did. So whose beliefs exactly don't you rubbish, since you've owned up that you do to Jews, Christians, Muslims and Pagans. Would that be only actually Atheists you respect? Just so I have this straight in my head.

[naomi24]

Jim, ps.... and I'm delighted that a respected scientist is - at long last - seriously considering the possibility.

[doctordb]

You used religion sharingan but I was only referring to the belief in magic, ie witchcraft.

[jim360]

Which bit, though? That life may have originated spontaneously elsewhere before coming to Earth I can believe, though it doesn't explain how that[i life emerged, or maybe it was just organic matter. That our planet was [i]deliberately] seeded is just barmy.

[Sharingan]

Oh I see Drb, so Witchraft is rubbish but a guy sitting on a cloud making the earth in 7 days is plausible. Okay.
You do understand that all major religions accept the existence of magick including Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism- in fact ALL major religions. I don't therefore see how you can reconcile treating these people with respect who also believe in magick but not a practitioner of the craft itself. Just seems a bit ill thought out and rude to me to be honest.

[naomi24]

Jim, //That our planet was [i]deliberately] seeded is just barmy. //

It isn't you know. It's perfectly feasible. I won't go into which bits I agree with here - it's a big subject, so perhaps we'll do it somewhere else at another time. I just thought I'd say it isn't as 'crackpot' as you seem to think - and far less 'crackpot' than the rest of what's being discussed here.

[jim360]

Well on a general principle if our planet were seeded deliberately could that not be the origin of religions? Extrapolating from some intelligent alien life to an all-powerful God is not too far a step for the earliest humans, when they would have no understanding of the technology they saw. So it would, arguably, make the origins of religion that more plausible.

No, it is not scientific in any way to suggest that we were planted here deliberately. Whether or not it is right is another matter. But it would be luck, rather than skill.

[doctordb]

Sharingan, it is possible to rubbish a belief but respect an individual.

Man on a cloud; no, like magic not plausible.

[Sharingan]

I did if you notice only say you rubbished people's opinions not the individuals themselves. Since I don't know you personally it would be very rude of me to have made an observation I couldn't qualify, so I didn't do it, but my understanding is that Christians believe that God is a being and that he made the world in seven days, yet you have no problem with their beliefs but a problem with Magick. It just seems a bit odd is all, but is far more common than you would assume, many religious people can't understand the idea of magick and think it's mumbo jumbo when they themselves pray ( that is a spell) and join together in vigils ( that is group energy) and behave exactly the same way we do.

[jim360]

Six days, not seven. Not that this is all that important as both are, in my opinion, wrong. But still. Everyone who has a belief system tends to believe that system's rituals more plausible than any other's. Prayer isn't necessarily a spell as not all Christians expect anything more from prayer other than comfort that God is listening; group prayers, similarly, aren't believed to enhance the effect but merely bring the community together in silent thought. This differs between denominations, for sure, but in more modern churches it's not really comparable to a spell/ enhanced by group energy idea.

[LazyGun]

In answer to the OP - no, I do not think witchcraft exists. I think what you are experiencing is down to suggestion and your own subconscious and your own beliefs.

Nor do I believe in "magic". And if those who do wish to make use of terms like energy, which has a well established meaning, then they will need to defend their own interpretation of the word. Energy, like Quantum, are terms often co-opted by various alternative practitioners, but can offer little observable evidence of energy manipulation or quantum effects when tested.

"Energy" is measurable. Quantum and its effects are understood, if imperfectly.

So if I am being honest - I find the cavalier use of the terms more than a little irritating.

And one further side issue, since it has been raised in the conversation. Can someone explain to me why exactly beliefs and faiths are worthy of automatic respect? Some beliefs, some faiths are worthy only of derision and scorn, in my opinion, and just speaking empirically, all beliefs are most certainly not equal, nor should they be.....

[naomi24]

Jim, // So it would, arguably, make the origins of religion that more plausible.//

Yes, exactly.

//But it would be luck, rather than skill.//

No – but as I said, it’s not a subject for this thread.

[naomi24]

LG, //Can someone explain to me why exactly beliefs and faiths are worthy of automatic respect? //

I'd like to hear that explanation too.

[doctordb]

To be clear sharingan I do equally rubbish the magical beliefs of religion. I was just sticking to the thread.

[jim360]

Here you go then Naomi. I'm intrigued.

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Science/Question1242817.html

[Old_Geezer]

Surely if you do not respect another's right to believe something you can not expect them to be more courteous to your beliefs ? The default should be to be respectful until there is a valid reason not to be.

[LazyGun]

@ O_G "Surely if you do not respect another's right to believe something you can not expect them to be more courteous to your beliefs ? The default should be to be respectful until there is a valid reason not to be"

I would respect an individuals right to hold a belief, and my default position is to be respectful of an individual until word or deed requires a revision of that respect, or course. But I do not think that those beliefs should automatically be respected. All beliefs are not equally valid or equally worthy of respect.

This demand people have that because they hold something as a sincerely held belief and that therefore it should automatically be respected or allowed to pass unchallenged is a direct assault on free speech stifles criticism and challenge of ideas, and underpins calls and demands for blasphemy laws or the worst excesses of the PC culture - and do not get me wrong - for the most part, I think PC can be a useful social lubricant.....