Sport2 mins ago
Collective Resposibility
As some will know, I've been advocating this on here for a long time, finally the penny seems to have dropped. It makes sense, wouldn't you agree?
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Collective Responsibility.......Lovely sentiments have been expressed on the thread. But what about the collective responsibility of the damned politicians that got us here. It is now the task of the ordinary man and woman to sort out the "collective mess" created by the likes of Merkhel, Blair, Juncker, Mandelson(creep) and the rest of the guilty who make policy to suit their own corrupt ends. Meehh.
khandro
You ask:
//Do you think it is possible to live in a house with a son who is either a jihadi or at least a strong jihadi supporter and not be aware of it?//
Absolutely.
I would be very surprised if this were information that jahidists readily share with their close family.
It reminds me of the family of convicted paedophiles. Unless you have access to their email and online presence, it's difficult to establish what's in someone's mind.
You ask:
//Do you think it is possible to live in a house with a son who is either a jihadi or at least a strong jihadi supporter and not be aware of it?//
Absolutely.
I would be very surprised if this were information that jahidists readily share with their close family.
It reminds me of the family of convicted paedophiles. Unless you have access to their email and online presence, it's difficult to establish what's in someone's mind.
sp; I won't ask you questions about your family, but I could never get away with a lie to my mum.
As you've ask me several times to clarify my position, here it is; firstly, I don't understand why the UK hasn't declared a state of emergency like the French. Then I would close any mosque where a jihadi had attended, on the conditions I have said earlier. Then, non of these jihadis or their families seem to have a job. Have you heard of any of them described as an electrician or a chef or whatever? Anjem Choudrey didn't work and it is estimated that he and his family have received £500,000 pounds of taxpayers money in benefits - he calls it his 'jihadi-seekers allowance', ha-ha, geddit?
I would remove all state benefits from the families of jihadis and if they don't like it, they can either go and get a job like I and every member of my family past and present has done, or if Islam is so great, why not move to a Muslim country? and I would stop ALL allowances to any family in the UK beyond the first two children.
Please spare me now your usual bleeding-heart liberal rubbish, how you can't do this and can't do that, and try to understand what is going on.
As you've ask me several times to clarify my position, here it is; firstly, I don't understand why the UK hasn't declared a state of emergency like the French. Then I would close any mosque where a jihadi had attended, on the conditions I have said earlier. Then, non of these jihadis or their families seem to have a job. Have you heard of any of them described as an electrician or a chef or whatever? Anjem Choudrey didn't work and it is estimated that he and his family have received £500,000 pounds of taxpayers money in benefits - he calls it his 'jihadi-seekers allowance', ha-ha, geddit?
I would remove all state benefits from the families of jihadis and if they don't like it, they can either go and get a job like I and every member of my family past and present has done, or if Islam is so great, why not move to a Muslim country? and I would stop ALL allowances to any family in the UK beyond the first two children.
Please spare me now your usual bleeding-heart liberal rubbish, how you can't do this and can't do that, and try to understand what is going on.
sp1814 - // In gathering evidence about a terrorist attack, police will seize the mobile phones and the computer of the suspect.
If they find evidence of communications about the attack (eg. emails, social media posts or texts), and there is a dialogue about it between the suspect and a third party, that would prove that the third party knew about it. In that situation, it could be argued that not alerting the authorities is a criminal offence. //
Social media messages and texts are concrete proof that knowledge was held, and not divulged.
Khandro appears to be suggesting that simply 'knowing and not saying' should be an offence, and as I and others have pointed out, that is a fatuous concept.
If they find evidence of communications about the attack (eg. emails, social media posts or texts), and there is a dialogue about it between the suspect and a third party, that would prove that the third party knew about it. In that situation, it could be argued that not alerting the authorities is a criminal offence. //
Social media messages and texts are concrete proof that knowledge was held, and not divulged.
Khandro appears to be suggesting that simply 'knowing and not saying' should be an offence, and as I and others have pointed out, that is a fatuous concept.
Khandro - // sp; I won't ask you questions about your family, but I could never get away with a lie to my mum. //
The you would make a useless terrorist, wouldn't you! Surely one of the prerequisites is the ability to hide in plain sight, and where better to start being secretive than with your own family?
// As you've ask me several times to clarify my position, here it is; firstly, I don't understand why the UK hasn't declared a state of emergency like the French. //
That's not your position, that's another question.
Then I would close any mosque where a jihadi had attended, on the conditions I have said earlier. //
Yes, that's definitely the way to encourage good relations with the world's biggest religion - treat them all like terrorists. Why bother inferring that you think they are all murdering zealots anyway, why not treat them as if they all are anyway, - that would be an excellent reason for an increase in radicalisation. Terrorists already hate the West - let's give them seriously good cause to carry on.
Then, non of these jihadis or their families seem to have a job. Have you heard of any of them described as an electrician or a chef or whatever? Anjem Choudrey didn't work and it is estimated that he and his family have received £500,000 pounds of taxpayers money in benefits - he calls it his 'jihadi-seekers allowance', ha-ha, geddit?
I would remove all state benefits from the families of jihadis and if they don't like it, they can either go and get a job like I and every member of my family past and present has done, or if Islam is so great, why not move to a Muslim country? and I would stop ALL allowances to any family in the UK beyond the first two children. //
Fantastic - let's make sweeping assumptions that all Muslims are work-shy scroungers and punish their children by starving them out of their homes.
You really have got this issue nailed haven't you? Treat the other 99.99% like the '00.01% - that will bring the savages into line, and it won't mean any sort of backlash from the terrorists, they'll just meekly pop off back home and stop being so nasty.
// Please spare me now your usual bleeding-heart liberal rubbish, how you can't do this and can't do that, and try to understand what is going on. //
Delighted, if you spare me your usual fascist jack-boot nonsense and try and understand what is going on.
The you would make a useless terrorist, wouldn't you! Surely one of the prerequisites is the ability to hide in plain sight, and where better to start being secretive than with your own family?
// As you've ask me several times to clarify my position, here it is; firstly, I don't understand why the UK hasn't declared a state of emergency like the French. //
That's not your position, that's another question.
Then I would close any mosque where a jihadi had attended, on the conditions I have said earlier. //
Yes, that's definitely the way to encourage good relations with the world's biggest religion - treat them all like terrorists. Why bother inferring that you think they are all murdering zealots anyway, why not treat them as if they all are anyway, - that would be an excellent reason for an increase in radicalisation. Terrorists already hate the West - let's give them seriously good cause to carry on.
Then, non of these jihadis or their families seem to have a job. Have you heard of any of them described as an electrician or a chef or whatever? Anjem Choudrey didn't work and it is estimated that he and his family have received £500,000 pounds of taxpayers money in benefits - he calls it his 'jihadi-seekers allowance', ha-ha, geddit?
I would remove all state benefits from the families of jihadis and if they don't like it, they can either go and get a job like I and every member of my family past and present has done, or if Islam is so great, why not move to a Muslim country? and I would stop ALL allowances to any family in the UK beyond the first two children. //
Fantastic - let's make sweeping assumptions that all Muslims are work-shy scroungers and punish their children by starving them out of their homes.
You really have got this issue nailed haven't you? Treat the other 99.99% like the '00.01% - that will bring the savages into line, and it won't mean any sort of backlash from the terrorists, they'll just meekly pop off back home and stop being so nasty.
// Please spare me now your usual bleeding-heart liberal rubbish, how you can't do this and can't do that, and try to understand what is going on. //
Delighted, if you spare me your usual fascist jack-boot nonsense and try and understand what is going on.
Garaman - //To right-minded people there is no such thing as 'simply knowing and not saying' that someone is about to commit mass murder. For sure that should be an offence. //
There is only any point in making something an offence if you can prove it in a court of law.
You cannot prove that someone does or does not 'know' something, and that is why the concept does not exist.
There is only any point in making something an offence if you can prove it in a court of law.
You cannot prove that someone does or does not 'know' something, and that is why the concept does not exist.
EDDIE- Spicerack at 01. something today is right.
Even my French neighbour's son (Eric) who worked in the slaughterhouse absolutely hated, HATED, Halal days. His descriptions used to make me feel sick - and this is mainstream slaughter; and the French are not noted for their sentimentality towards animals.
Even my French neighbour's son (Eric) who worked in the slaughterhouse absolutely hated, HATED, Halal days. His descriptions used to make me feel sick - and this is mainstream slaughter; and the French are not noted for their sentimentality towards animals.
Garaman -//You are missing the point as usual, Andy. I'll leave you to it, goodnight. //
Ignoring the absence of my need to be patronised - I would suggest that, ironically, it is actually you that is missing the point.
You cannot prosecute someone in a court of law for knowing something - much less the idea that the individual knew something and didn't tell anyone.
I know something illegal, and I am thinking about it as I type.
Feel free to try and prosecute me for not telling you what it is in advance of a future circumstance, which, obviously, I am not going to tell you about either.
Of course - I could simply be spinning you a tale - you are never going to know - are you? And that is where your entire premise collapses.
Ignoring the absence of my need to be patronised - I would suggest that, ironically, it is actually you that is missing the point.
You cannot prosecute someone in a court of law for knowing something - much less the idea that the individual knew something and didn't tell anyone.
I know something illegal, and I am thinking about it as I type.
Feel free to try and prosecute me for not telling you what it is in advance of a future circumstance, which, obviously, I am not going to tell you about either.
Of course - I could simply be spinning you a tale - you are never going to know - are you? And that is where your entire premise collapses.
ANDY, you wrote, "Garaman - If you can advise me of a way to prove that someone knew something and didn't tell anyone, I will lobby my MP for the legislation first thing in the morning."
You've already given your own example when you said,
"Social media messages and texts are concrete proof that knowledge was held, and not divulged."
You've already given your own example when you said,
"Social media messages and texts are concrete proof that knowledge was held, and not divulged."
// You cannot prosecute someone in a court of law for knowing something - much less the idea that the individual knew something and - didn't tell anyone. //
erm yes you can and they have done in the past
s 32 of the Terrorism Act
the Shady case - - diaries, emails, bits of paper - ref already given and ignored - ho hum - the falsities peddled as truth go on
civil rights lawyers clearly up in the air about this
and garaman is right - the duty to report is only connected to a few offences - Terrorism - money laundering - erm I am going to have to think of a few more
AH's points on proof are almost completely wrong
it ISNt dependent on a confession ( since the er successes of the IRA trials ) and certainly shouldnt ONLY depend on a confession.
ho hum this is a news thread so nothing need be true
erm yes you can and they have done in the past
s 32 of the Terrorism Act
the Shady case - - diaries, emails, bits of paper - ref already given and ignored - ho hum - the falsities peddled as truth go on
civil rights lawyers clearly up in the air about this
and garaman is right - the duty to report is only connected to a few offences - Terrorism - money laundering - erm I am going to have to think of a few more
AH's points on proof are almost completely wrong
it ISNt dependent on a confession ( since the er successes of the IRA trials ) and certainly shouldnt ONLY depend on a confession.
ho hum this is a news thread so nothing need be true
CORBYLOON - //ANDY, you wrote, "Garaman - If you can advise me of a way to prove that someone knew something and didn't tell anyone, I will lobby my MP for the legislation first thing in the morning."
You've already given your own example when you said,
"Social media messages and texts are concrete proof that knowledge was held, and not divulged." //
Those are separate entities, as I have pointed out in previous posts.
Text messages and e-mails are evidence which can be produced in a court of law, and used to make a case for the prosecution.
The point I am making is that you cannot prove in a court of law that someone knew (and that means was aware of, but did not confirm by any provable means like a text or a mail) something, and did not divulge it.
All the individual has to do is to deny it.
As I have also pointed out - it is for the prosecution to prove that someone knew something, not for the defence to prove that they did not, and you cannot prove that someone knew something without evidence, and being their mother or father, or sharing a house is circumstances, not evidence, and not proof.
You've already given your own example when you said,
"Social media messages and texts are concrete proof that knowledge was held, and not divulged." //
Those are separate entities, as I have pointed out in previous posts.
Text messages and e-mails are evidence which can be produced in a court of law, and used to make a case for the prosecution.
The point I am making is that you cannot prove in a court of law that someone knew (and that means was aware of, but did not confirm by any provable means like a text or a mail) something, and did not divulge it.
All the individual has to do is to deny it.
As I have also pointed out - it is for the prosecution to prove that someone knew something, not for the defence to prove that they did not, and you cannot prove that someone knew something without evidence, and being their mother or father, or sharing a house is circumstances, not evidence, and not proof.
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