Collective Resposibility

[Khandro]

As some will know, I've been advocating this on here for a long time, finally the penny seems to have dropped. It makes sense, wouldn't you agree?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/terrorists-families-friends-should-be-jailed-failing-alert-authorities-police-max-hill-isis-legal-a7924941.html

[Khandro]

...and by the way, we're not talking about parking offences here, we're talking about the wholesale massacre of innocent men women and children of the streets on Europe.
What is your suggestion?

[Peter Pedant]

// PP, Oh it goes back much further than that, were you never all kept in detention for some other brats misdeeds?//

and loudly yowled about it to the masters ( this was fifteen y post war) that this was what the Germans had done to POWs. - I dont think I aded it was considered a war crime

[Peter Pedant]

a false report was filed that German POWs were handcuffed in Tehran and this led Hitler to order the one blanket rule for British POWs in winter

[EDDIE51]

I can see major problems with proving that the friends and families actually knew what was happening. In some cases they are part of the plot in others they genuinely know nothing about it. Trying to prove to a jury which it was would be very difficult.

[Garaman]

I don't know whether or not this would be a good measure, but I don't think we ought to be constraining measures to combat terrorism with those we would take for drug dealing, car theft, benefit cheating, etc.

[EDDIE51]

Perhaps we should adopt the North Korea solution?
If someone is found guilty of 'crime against the state' all generations of their family are executed . Grandparents,Parents, Children , Grandchildren are all executed without trial .
It is called guilt by association , you assume that the entire family is guilty due to the actions of one member.
We do not do that we are civilised, also as mikey says it can't be applied to terrorism only it would have to apply to any crime. Jailing a parent because their child was a shoplifter for example!

[Garaman]

Why would special measures introduced to combat terrorism have to apply to benefit cheats? Because Mikey says?

[Khandro]

//Jailing a parent because their child was a shoplifter for example! //

That is absurd, as is the NK reference. We are talking about collective responsibility solely for crimes of terror - mass murder of innocents on European streets.
Special crimes require special treatment and maybe laws.

[sandyRoe]

Perhaps the UK authorities should copy the Israelis. They sometimes demolish the family home of people who'd acted against them.

[EDDIE51]

You can't put crimes that you consider to be terrorism in a special group with different rules to other crime, crime is crime no matter what the motivation. So if you can jail a family member for failing to report a 'terrorist crime' the same must apply to any other crime that has a possible jail term.
Failing to report benefit fraud would come under that heading as it is an imprisonable offence and one where it could reasonably be expected that other family and friends could know about it.
Failing to report a burglar, shoplifter or bank robber would be other examples.

[Garaman]

//You can't put crimes that you consider to be terrorism in a special group with different rules to other crime...//

Yes you can.

[EDDIE51]

Khandro please tell us where you draw the line for 'collective responsibility' jail terms . Murder, rape, child abuse, bank robbery, fraud, assault You have to set the line somewhere so tell us where you think it should be.
But the main problem is as said at the beginning, all someone accused under this rule needs to do is say they knew nothing about it and get the court to prove they are lying.

[Khandro]

Eddie, are you are being particularly obtuse? every single crime has its own punishment.

[EDDIE51]

Garaman, then you need to define 'terrorism' from other murders, assault or threatening behaviour .So please explain how that can be done.
If a member of one gang kills a member of another gang is that terrorism? Or is it only terrorism if the person killed is a different ethnicity / religion to the killer? All this needs to be set out in detail.

[EDDIE51]

Khandro nowhere in law is terrorism defined as a specific crime. It can be a motivation for a crime ranging from verbal abuse to mass murder but it is not an actual crime. There is no offence of 'being a terrorist' alone without some other criminal activity.

[Garaman]

//Garaman, then you need to define 'terrorism' from other murders, assault or threatening behaviour .So please explain how that can be done.
If a member of one gang kills a member of another gang is that terrorism? Or is it only terrorism if the person killed is a different ethnicity / religion to the killer? All this needs to be set out in detail.//

I can't be bothered answer that.

[THECORBYLOON]

"Khandro nowhere in law is terrorism defined as a specific crime."

EDDIE , the Terrorism Act 2000 defines terrorism in relation to the Act.

[EDDIE51]

^ Yes terrorism is a motive , it is not a crime in itself . As I said you can't be charged with just 'being a terrorist' you need to commit a crime and have terrorism as motivation to be charged with a terrorism offence.

[Khandro]

Eddie //Yes terrorism is a motive , it is not a crime in itself . As I said you can't be charged with just 'being a terrorist' you need to commit a crime and have terrorism as motivation to be charged with a terrorism offence.//

I think you've got them in a twist; a person is a 'terrorist' when he commits an act of terror, you can't arrest someone for thinking about it any more than you could imprison someone for thinking about murder, that isn't under discussion. We are talking about terrorists who have, by definition, committed terrorism, no one else.

[woofgang]

So should we punish children if their parents are terrorists? How young? New born babies? What about neighbours? The bloke in the papershop who might know something?