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Should The Government Permit Phase 2 Of The Neverendum?
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I think they should hold it annually on St Nicola's day.
I think they should hold it annually on St Nicola's day.
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There were other warnings against voting yes, but one of the most often shouted and suggested outcome of the Scottish independence referendum was that Scotland would end up outside the EU. In the referendum on the UK's membership of the EU, as already pointed out, the Scottish vote was unequivocally for membership. There is thus consistency if we assume that at least the 5% or so which swung the independence result against independence were those persuaded primarily by the argument insisting on inevitable loss of EU membership. In Scotland the EU referendum difference for/against was greater.
I would therefore not with any conviction suggest that a repeat referendum on independence would now result in a vote to stay within the UK, not least because (rightly or wrongly) there is a widespread view in Scotland that (in addition to the current EU consideration) the panicky promises made to Scottish voters by Westminster at the time have not been and will never be kept.
To suggest that Scotland is incapable of the success other independent nations of equal size and/or smaller amounts to undermining any argument against independence. There is no plausible evidence to the effect that Scots are inherently incompetent or worse, whatever bigots might spout. Others enjoy a successful independence and so could Scotland.
I would therefore not with any conviction suggest that a repeat referendum on independence would now result in a vote to stay within the UK, not least because (rightly or wrongly) there is a widespread view in Scotland that (in addition to the current EU consideration) the panicky promises made to Scottish voters by Westminster at the time have not been and will never be kept.
To suggest that Scotland is incapable of the success other independent nations of equal size and/or smaller amounts to undermining any argument against independence. There is no plausible evidence to the effect that Scots are inherently incompetent or worse, whatever bigots might spout. Others enjoy a successful independence and so could Scotland.
As kromo says: technically Maybcan disallow it but practically she cannot.
This is actually a smart move by Ms Sturgeon, probably the sharpest political operator in the U.K. It puts huge pressure on the govt to deliver a deal with the EU that is right for the whole people and not just for the headless chicken faction within Brexitism.
This is actually a smart move by Ms Sturgeon, probably the sharpest political operator in the U.K. It puts huge pressure on the govt to deliver a deal with the EU that is right for the whole people and not just for the headless chicken faction within Brexitism.
That only works though, ich, if the UK government responds in the right way -- which, to my mind, is refusing the offer *now* (ok, in two years) but guaranteeing one in the not-too-distant future after that. If they call Sturgeon's bluff one way or another I don't see the outcome being very pretty. It stands to reason that committing to Brexit means trying to get the best out of it possible, and that should be a lot easier if the UK is actually U when dealing with the EU, now and for as long as the negotiations take.
Alternatively, refusing the vote smacks of contempt, probably makes the divides that allow the SNP to keep calling for a referendum even stronger, and could make the break-up effectively inevitable.
Finally, it's odd timing in one sense because I thought Sturgeon was waiting for a marked and clear swing in favour of independence in polls, but this swing has not yet materialised. Maybe it will as Brexit starts and continues, but if it never does then it's a sure way to guarantee that the SNP's ambitions will die for a long time yet. Two defeats in five years? How can the party, let along Sturgeon, recover from that?
This announcement only makes sense as an attempt to shape the negotiations of Brexit, rather than an attempt to seek independence. Since it's happened before the Article 50 Bill has passed and before Article 50 has been triggered, I almost wonder if it's a last desperate attempt to frighten MPs into halting the process at the last second, or at least to keep the Lords amendments.
I think it's probably true that the UK government has so far shown signs of listening to and then ignoring anyone who doesn't agree with their intended negotiating pitch, which looks to be "Brexit Max" or hard Brexit or whatever. So perhaps also it's an attempt to just force May to listen to the Scots government (ie, to Sturgeon). Which would be nice, but this is playing with fire.
No, as I see it this is premature, and therefore very reckless. Could work spectacularly, could fail spectacularly, I don't think it will fizzle into irrelevance though.
Alternatively, refusing the vote smacks of contempt, probably makes the divides that allow the SNP to keep calling for a referendum even stronger, and could make the break-up effectively inevitable.
Finally, it's odd timing in one sense because I thought Sturgeon was waiting for a marked and clear swing in favour of independence in polls, but this swing has not yet materialised. Maybe it will as Brexit starts and continues, but if it never does then it's a sure way to guarantee that the SNP's ambitions will die for a long time yet. Two defeats in five years? How can the party, let along Sturgeon, recover from that?
This announcement only makes sense as an attempt to shape the negotiations of Brexit, rather than an attempt to seek independence. Since it's happened before the Article 50 Bill has passed and before Article 50 has been triggered, I almost wonder if it's a last desperate attempt to frighten MPs into halting the process at the last second, or at least to keep the Lords amendments.
I think it's probably true that the UK government has so far shown signs of listening to and then ignoring anyone who doesn't agree with their intended negotiating pitch, which looks to be "Brexit Max" or hard Brexit or whatever. So perhaps also it's an attempt to just force May to listen to the Scots government (ie, to Sturgeon). Which would be nice, but this is playing with fire.
No, as I see it this is premature, and therefore very reckless. Could work spectacularly, could fail spectacularly, I don't think it will fizzle into irrelevance though.
Sadly tho it's the consequence of the reckless decision to hold a referendum and decide, on the basis of a narrow majority, to ride roughshod over ree wished of two parts of the Uk. I hope the UK won't split as a result, but this was effectively English UDI. It's a bad situation no matter how those in denial try to spin it. My one criticism of the SNP is that they speak only for Scotland but then that is their prime interest
First Minister Nicola Sturgeon announces independence referendum will be between Autumn 2018 and Spring 2019
Ms Sturgeon says she will seek Scottish Parliament approval for a second independence referendum next week
The franchise and question in the second independence referendum is for the Scottish Parliament to decide says the first minister
KARL
There is no plausible evidence to the effect that Scots are inherently incompetent or worse, whatever bigots might spout.
Strewth ... who are these bigots who have said the Scots are inherently incompetent?
Or are you another who likes to get off on calling people bigots to make yourself look superior?
There is no plausible evidence to the effect that Scots are inherently incompetent or worse, whatever bigots might spout.
Strewth ... who are these bigots who have said the Scots are inherently incompetent?
Or are you another who likes to get off on calling people bigots to make yourself look superior?
“Of course it will be sought if they go ahead,”
That’s alright then. But it would have been nice (or even polite) if her timetable had included seeking the agreement of the Westminster Parliament.
Ms Sturgeon, in her single-minded pursuit of Scottish Independence, may find she is not quite as canny as she’d like us to think. I don’t doubt for one minute that Westminster’s agreement to her idea will be granted. After all, why strive to keep a member of your club who does not want to belong to it – especially when it costs you money to retain their custom. But strangely she sees no conundrum in seeking to take Scotland out of the UK because it will no longer be in the EU when such action will leave Scotland isolated from both the UK and the EU. She somehow seems to believe that Scotland can negotiate a better relationship with the EU than the UK can and also seems prepared to jeopardise the trading relationship it has with its biggest market.
Well good luck to her and to the Scots if they are foolish enough to vote for it. I personally don’t give a cuss what they do so long as their 8% of the UK population does not determine to any degree whatsoever what happens to the other 92%.
That’s alright then. But it would have been nice (or even polite) if her timetable had included seeking the agreement of the Westminster Parliament.
Ms Sturgeon, in her single-minded pursuit of Scottish Independence, may find she is not quite as canny as she’d like us to think. I don’t doubt for one minute that Westminster’s agreement to her idea will be granted. After all, why strive to keep a member of your club who does not want to belong to it – especially when it costs you money to retain their custom. But strangely she sees no conundrum in seeking to take Scotland out of the UK because it will no longer be in the EU when such action will leave Scotland isolated from both the UK and the EU. She somehow seems to believe that Scotland can negotiate a better relationship with the EU than the UK can and also seems prepared to jeopardise the trading relationship it has with its biggest market.
Well good luck to her and to the Scots if they are foolish enough to vote for it. I personally don’t give a cuss what they do so long as their 8% of the UK population does not determine to any degree whatsoever what happens to the other 92%.
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