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The Integration Of Muslims....
...will probably be the hardest task" the UK has ever faced.
So says Trevor Phillips, former chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
According to a recent survey:
52% of those quizzed disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, and 47% said it was unacceptable for a gay or lesbian person to teach in school.
Only 34% would tell the police if they thought someone they knew was getting involved with supporters of terrorism in Syria and 4% said they sympathise with people who take part in suicide bombing to fight injustice.
39% were also found to be of the view that "wives should always obey their husbands".
23% said they would support there being areas of Britain in which Sharia law was introduced.
Mr Phillips said "The integration of Britain's Muslims will probably be the hardest task we've ever faced. It will require the abandonment of the milk-and-water multiculturalism still so beloved of many, and the adoption of a far more muscular approach to integration."
How do we begin to abandon "the milk-and-water multiculturalism still so beloved of many" and adopt a “far more muscular approach to integration”?
http://
So says Trevor Phillips, former chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
According to a recent survey:
52% of those quizzed disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, and 47% said it was unacceptable for a gay or lesbian person to teach in school.
Only 34% would tell the police if they thought someone they knew was getting involved with supporters of terrorism in Syria and 4% said they sympathise with people who take part in suicide bombing to fight injustice.
39% were also found to be of the view that "wives should always obey their husbands".
23% said they would support there being areas of Britain in which Sharia law was introduced.
Mr Phillips said "The integration of Britain's Muslims will probably be the hardest task we've ever faced. It will require the abandonment of the milk-and-water multiculturalism still so beloved of many, and the adoption of a far more muscular approach to integration."
How do we begin to abandon "the milk-and-water multiculturalism still so beloved of many" and adopt a “far more muscular approach to integration”?
http://
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Jim, // there's no hope of solving it if we are too busy arguing about what "it" even is.//
You’re arguing about what ‘it’ is. I’m not. This survey gives a clear indication of what it is – and, despite your protestations and efforts to prove that the same applies across the board, the problem we are presented with applies to no other ethnic minority in this country. If it did, we would be hearing about it – but we’re not. According to this survey, 78% of British Muslims would like to integrate into British life on most things apart from Islamic schooling and some laws, which means that less than a quarter of them are happy for their children to learn through our education system and less than a quarter of them are happy to embrace our laws as a whole. Islam is a problem.
You’re arguing about what ‘it’ is. I’m not. This survey gives a clear indication of what it is – and, despite your protestations and efforts to prove that the same applies across the board, the problem we are presented with applies to no other ethnic minority in this country. If it did, we would be hearing about it – but we’re not. According to this survey, 78% of British Muslims would like to integrate into British life on most things apart from Islamic schooling and some laws, which means that less than a quarter of them are happy for their children to learn through our education system and less than a quarter of them are happy to embrace our laws as a whole. Islam is a problem.
On Channel 4 this evening;
"What British Muslims Really Think - 10.00pm
Following the heightened security measures in the aftermath of terror attacks in Paris and Brussels, politicians and Muslim leaders claim that the values of these extremists are shared by only a tiny minority in the UK. To find out if this is the case, a survey was carried out to get a better understanding of the views of British Muslims and to try to comprehend why some young Muslims are being drawn to violence. Writer and former Chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission Trevor Phillips analyses and interprets the survey for this documentary, and considers its implications for future relations between Britain's Muslim and non-Muslim communities
Runtime: 1 hour 5 minutes "
"What British Muslims Really Think - 10.00pm
Following the heightened security measures in the aftermath of terror attacks in Paris and Brussels, politicians and Muslim leaders claim that the values of these extremists are shared by only a tiny minority in the UK. To find out if this is the case, a survey was carried out to get a better understanding of the views of British Muslims and to try to comprehend why some young Muslims are being drawn to violence. Writer and former Chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission Trevor Phillips analyses and interprets the survey for this documentary, and considers its implications for future relations between Britain's Muslim and non-Muslim communities
Runtime: 1 hour 5 minutes "
"...despite your protestations and efforts to prove that the same applies across the board..."
I was not trying to show that the same applies across the board, but where it did apply, and where it did not. There are some places, as I have freely admitted, where it does.
Incidentally, your use of statistics in the last place shows up a small problem, but the technical one I was trying to highlight. People determined to portray Islam as entirely a problem are likely to misuse or abuse these statistics. In actual fact, although this doesn't remove the problem of course, it is "less than a half" rather than "less than a quarter" of Muslims who, currently, aren't happy with total integration. The precise breakdown of the statistic you were trying to explain is (page 81 of the survey)
49% would like to fully integrate on everything
29% would like to integrate on most things, except maybe on some things such as schools and law (but, note, you can't say which they had in mind).
17% would like to integrate on some things but "lead a separate Islamic life as far as possible" (to be honest this sounds like "integrate but not").
1% wouldn't like to integrate at all, wanting a "fully separate Islamic area in Britain";
4% don't knows.
Hence, firstly, it's almost half of Muslims who want or are happy with full integration including, and not "less than a quarter", and secondly, those 1% of Muslims wanting a separate Islamic area in Britain, under Sharia law, can get stuffed (although note that those 1% are almost entirely new arrivals; Muslims born here at least want to integrate to some extent).
So, yes, we are arguing about what "it" is, partly because again we see an example of someone exaggerating the scale of the problem, and I feel it's important to point this error out. And again, why is it so stupid to try and ensure that the results are in some context? There could be at least two reasons you aren't hearing about the same problems from other groups, only one of which is because there aren't any. As the survey demonstrates, this is indeed true some of the time; on other occasions, the context *does* show that the answer Muslims gave are not so surprising after all compared to the rest of the country.
Where they are outstanding and sad statistics, we must address this; where they are not, we must accept this. That is the argument that has to be resolved before tackling the problem, and criticising someone for trying to resolve what is and what isn't worth addressing is self-defeating.
I was not trying to show that the same applies across the board, but where it did apply, and where it did not. There are some places, as I have freely admitted, where it does.
Incidentally, your use of statistics in the last place shows up a small problem, but the technical one I was trying to highlight. People determined to portray Islam as entirely a problem are likely to misuse or abuse these statistics. In actual fact, although this doesn't remove the problem of course, it is "less than a half" rather than "less than a quarter" of Muslims who, currently, aren't happy with total integration. The precise breakdown of the statistic you were trying to explain is (page 81 of the survey)
49% would like to fully integrate on everything
29% would like to integrate on most things, except maybe on some things such as schools and law (but, note, you can't say which they had in mind).
17% would like to integrate on some things but "lead a separate Islamic life as far as possible" (to be honest this sounds like "integrate but not").
1% wouldn't like to integrate at all, wanting a "fully separate Islamic area in Britain";
4% don't knows.
Hence, firstly, it's almost half of Muslims who want or are happy with full integration including, and not "less than a quarter", and secondly, those 1% of Muslims wanting a separate Islamic area in Britain, under Sharia law, can get stuffed (although note that those 1% are almost entirely new arrivals; Muslims born here at least want to integrate to some extent).
So, yes, we are arguing about what "it" is, partly because again we see an example of someone exaggerating the scale of the problem, and I feel it's important to point this error out. And again, why is it so stupid to try and ensure that the results are in some context? There could be at least two reasons you aren't hearing about the same problems from other groups, only one of which is because there aren't any. As the survey demonstrates, this is indeed true some of the time; on other occasions, the context *does* show that the answer Muslims gave are not so surprising after all compared to the rest of the country.
Where they are outstanding and sad statistics, we must address this; where they are not, we must accept this. That is the argument that has to be resolved before tackling the problem, and criticising someone for trying to resolve what is and what isn't worth addressing is self-defeating.
Jim, I didn’t say it’s less than a quarter of Muslims who want or are happy with full integration. I said “less than a quarter are happy for their children to learn through our education system and less than a quarter of them are happy to embrace our laws as a whole” – and if you read the question you will find that the two subjects, education and law, are combined. Therefore approximately 75% are not happy for their children to learn through our education system, and are not happy to embrace our laws as a whole.
//almost half of Muslims who want or are happy with full integration //
You can juggle figures all you like, and split hairs for a percentage point or two here and there, but that ^ from you means more than half are not happy to fully integrate.
//almost half of Muslims who want or are happy with full integration //
You can juggle figures all you like, and split hairs for a percentage point or two here and there, but that ^ from you means more than half are not happy to fully integrate.
Whatever you said precisely about that figure, it was still wrong, Naomi.
Yes, though, it leaves half, or slightly more than half, apparently not willing to integrate fully, and that's troubling. The fact that almost half do, though, could just as easily be seen as encouragement that we can reach (most of) the remainder.
Yes, though, it leaves half, or slightly more than half, apparently not willing to integrate fully, and that's troubling. The fact that almost half do, though, could just as easily be seen as encouragement that we can reach (most of) the remainder.
Jim, I took that figure from the news report. It’s a few percentage points adrift of the one you presented. Big deal.
//The fact that almost half do…., //
… assuming they’ve been honest….
//… could just as easily be seen as encouragement that we can reach (most of) the remainder.//
It could…. but don’t hold your breath. "The milk-and-water multiculturalism still so beloved of many" is alive and kicking!
//The fact that almost half do…., //
… assuming they’ve been honest….
//… could just as easily be seen as encouragement that we can reach (most of) the remainder.//
It could…. but don’t hold your breath. "The milk-and-water multiculturalism still so beloved of many" is alive and kicking!
No Woman should be TOLD WHAT to do by men.
The UK has it's law.
The Law is made for all to abide by.#
You knew the Law here before you came.
You should be able to speak the English Language & don't expect us to pay for your learning it.
You came here to better your life.
We will help you to help yourself.
Don't use the ACE card every time you do not like something that's been said in jest.
Don't expect us to move the goal posts for your way of living.
This is the UK, you are here, your Parent's made the choice.
If you don't like the UK & our ways.
You know what to do! Your Choice.
The UK has it's law.
The Law is made for all to abide by.#
You knew the Law here before you came.
You should be able to speak the English Language & don't expect us to pay for your learning it.
You came here to better your life.
We will help you to help yourself.
Don't use the ACE card every time you do not like something that's been said in jest.
Don't expect us to move the goal posts for your way of living.
This is the UK, you are here, your Parent's made the choice.
If you don't like the UK & our ways.
You know what to do! Your Choice.
The woman on that show last night, who'd obviously been pushed forward by her mosque as a 'voice of reason'.
"I obey sharia law. It tells me what to eat, when to eat. How I bring my kids up. What I watch. Everything I do. People in this country think sharia law is chopping hands and stuff. Ha ha ha, not at all".
Couldn't help thinking that if someone is moronic enough to live their life as instructed by a 7th century book, she'd surely go along with the choppy, choppy bits if she were given the opportunity to do so.
"I obey sharia law. It tells me what to eat, when to eat. How I bring my kids up. What I watch. Everything I do. People in this country think sharia law is chopping hands and stuff. Ha ha ha, not at all".
Couldn't help thinking that if someone is moronic enough to live their life as instructed by a 7th century book, she'd surely go along with the choppy, choppy bits if she were given the opportunity to do so.
Khandro, I've watched it. Perhaps best to move to here:
http://
http://
I feel a little aggrieved on Jim's behalf that he's been accused by TWR of "sermonising" for having taken the trouble to read the ICM survey results in full and offer his own interpretation of what he considers its salient points. I too have read the document in full. Thanks for supplying the link, Jim.
The only thing which was misleading (I am sure unintionally so) in Jim's posts was his suggestion (by using the British attitudes to homosexuality survey) that non-Muslim British attitudes to homosexuality were, only twenty years ago, not very different from those of Muslim Britons. The survey in question was about (mainly Christian) attitudes to homosexuality in general and some of what we are now forced to call "gay rights" in particular. Most Christians interrogated in that survey affirmed what any plain reading of their scriptures tell them - that homosexuality is a sin. That does not necessarily conflate to criminalising it, far less to throwing homosexuals from tall buildings or hanging them from cranes.
Jim mentioned only in passing the attitudes to cartoons and mocking the Prophet. I think these need greater attention.These are the full results (Muslim responses first followed by the those of the control group):
Should any publication have the right to publish pictures of the Islamic Prophet Mohammed?
Yes: 4% (67%)
No: 78% (20%)
Depends on the nature of the pictures: 12% (9%)
Should any publication have the right to publish pictures which make fun of the Islamic Prophet Mohammed?
Yes: 1% (47%)
No: 87% (44%)
Depends on the nature of the pictures: 8% (7%)
Do you sympathise or condemn those who use violence against those who mock the Prophet?
Completely sympathise/sympathise to some extent: 18% (%)
Condemn to some extent/completely condemn: 64% (%)
neither sympathised nor condemned 14%
Compare these answers with those to the question "Do you sympathise or condemn those who commit terrorist acts as a form of political protest?" when "only" 4% were wholly or partly sympathetic. The neither nors, by the was 9%.
The most interesting result is the 44% and 7% of the control group who believe that publications shouldn't have the right to mock the Prophet. While integration of some Muslims is taking longer than we'd hoped it's taken no time at all it seems for nearly half of the rest of us to become Sharia-compliant. Not the “far more muscular approach to integration” which Naomi was asking about.
I haven't tried to answer the question you posed in the OP, Naomi. will return to it later on this or the other thread.
The only thing which was misleading (I am sure unintionally so) in Jim's posts was his suggestion (by using the British attitudes to homosexuality survey) that non-Muslim British attitudes to homosexuality were, only twenty years ago, not very different from those of Muslim Britons. The survey in question was about (mainly Christian) attitudes to homosexuality in general and some of what we are now forced to call "gay rights" in particular. Most Christians interrogated in that survey affirmed what any plain reading of their scriptures tell them - that homosexuality is a sin. That does not necessarily conflate to criminalising it, far less to throwing homosexuals from tall buildings or hanging them from cranes.
Jim mentioned only in passing the attitudes to cartoons and mocking the Prophet. I think these need greater attention.These are the full results (Muslim responses first followed by the those of the control group):
Should any publication have the right to publish pictures of the Islamic Prophet Mohammed?
Yes: 4% (67%)
No: 78% (20%)
Depends on the nature of the pictures: 12% (9%)
Should any publication have the right to publish pictures which make fun of the Islamic Prophet Mohammed?
Yes: 1% (47%)
No: 87% (44%)
Depends on the nature of the pictures: 8% (7%)
Do you sympathise or condemn those who use violence against those who mock the Prophet?
Completely sympathise/sympathise to some extent: 18% (%)
Condemn to some extent/completely condemn: 64% (%)
neither sympathised nor condemned 14%
Compare these answers with those to the question "Do you sympathise or condemn those who commit terrorist acts as a form of political protest?" when "only" 4% were wholly or partly sympathetic. The neither nors, by the was 9%.
The most interesting result is the 44% and 7% of the control group who believe that publications shouldn't have the right to mock the Prophet. While integration of some Muslims is taking longer than we'd hoped it's taken no time at all it seems for nearly half of the rest of us to become Sharia-compliant. Not the “far more muscular approach to integration” which Naomi was asking about.
I haven't tried to answer the question you posed in the OP, Naomi. will return to it later on this or the other thread.
5 pages in but I am none the wiser about what "milk and water multiculturalism" even translates as, in plain English.
I am not gratuitously playing dumb here, to extract an answer, I have genuinely never encountered this phrase before. Worse still, if it is merely figurative, I don't even understand the imagery, or what (cookery?) practices it alludes to and thus can't work out the meaning, by the analogy.
I am not gratuitously playing dumb here, to extract an answer, I have genuinely never encountered this phrase before. Worse still, if it is merely figurative, I don't even understand the imagery, or what (cookery?) practices it alludes to and thus can't work out the meaning, by the analogy.
@naomi
Chemistry/biology not his strong card, evidently. Milk being an emulsion, at any concentration. The particles of fat never truly mix with the water.
Ho ho.
Also wanted to add my appreciation for Khandro's vid (top of page 3). The bit near the end, about US-base kids, growing up in Germany, "away from the sub-culture" was intriguing (nay, challenging, to some, no doubt).
I think his criticism of intellectuals is fair. I said as much in a recent AB thread: to excel, they have to specialise but they need to recognise the narrowness of their area of expertise. Being right all the time, in one's field of expertise does not mean their every other waking thought is also right.
Chemistry/biology not his strong card, evidently. Milk being an emulsion, at any concentration. The particles of fat never truly mix with the water.
Ho ho.
Also wanted to add my appreciation for Khandro's vid (top of page 3). The bit near the end, about US-base kids, growing up in Germany, "away from the sub-culture" was intriguing (nay, challenging, to some, no doubt).
I think his criticism of intellectuals is fair. I said as much in a recent AB thread: to excel, they have to specialise but they need to recognise the narrowness of their area of expertise. Being right all the time, in one's field of expertise does not mean their every other waking thought is also right.
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