What Do You Think?

[Svejk]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3207681/Mother-took-five-children-Manchester-Syria-denounces-ISIS-desperate-come-home.html

[Jackdaw33]

Have a heart, divebuddy! would you really want to see a poor (muslim) widow woman with five kids destitute?

[Jackdaw33]

Me speak with tongue in cheek. Apparently the government has decided to rename income support 'bakhsheesh'.

[andy-hughes]

As expected, the thread has developed with two distinct points of view -

one that this woman chose her future, and should be made to live with it, good or bad

the other is that she has made a mistake in her life, and she should not be made to pay for it for ever simply because UK citizens are standing in judgement about the nature of that mistake, and it pushes their buttons and they offer no sympathy or support at all.

Oh, and a side-helping of assuming that a newcomer is a troll, for reasons I cannot claim to understand.

[anotheoldgit]

andy-hughes

/// We all make mistakes, that is why they put bumpers on cars – and we should have a chance to put those mistakes right. ///

Blimey Andy what year car do you drive? Bumpers or Fenders went out years ago.

If you had been around during WW2 I suppose you would have shown the same sympathies toward those that chose to join the Nazis but then decided to come back?

They were classed as traitors back then, and faced execution, yes I know by today's standards that would be frowned upon, but letting this woman and her family back into the UK to perhaps claim Widows Pension along with all the other benefits we would bestow on her is just not on.

[andy-hughes]

AOG - "If you had been around during WW2 I suppose you would have shown the same sympathies toward those that chose to join the Nazis but then decided to come back?"

An unfounded supposition - so not really worthy of a response.

"They were classed as traitors back then, and faced execution, yes I know by today's standards that would be frowned upon, but letting this woman and her family back into the UK to perhaps claim Widows Pension along with all the other benefits we would bestow on her is just not on."

More unfounded supposition.

Why do you think that because this woman wants to bring her children back, that she must automatically represent a burden on the State? If she and / or her husband have made contributions to the tax system, and we have no evidence to the contrary, then a Widow's Pension would be her statutory right.

[anotheoldgit]

andy-hughes

/// Oh, and a side-helping of assuming that a newcomer is a troll, for reasons I cannot claim to understand. ///

Not just a troll, but by her own admission 'A Super Troll'.

[andy-hughes]

AOG - " Not just a troll, but by her own admission 'A Super Troll'.

Maybe her irony klaxon is faulty?

Just a thought.

[anotheoldgit]

andy-hughes

/// An unfounded supposition - so not really worthy of a response. ///

/// More unfounded supposition. ///

You just cannot dismiss valid points by simply just dismissing them in such a way.

Why did you bother carrying out those copy & paste exercises, if you didn't want to respond, why didn't you just ignore them, just as you did my 'Bumper' remark?

[naomi24]

Perhaps if people who are considering joining this country’s enemies know they won’t be allowed to return they might be discouraged from going in the first place. Take the cushion away.

[andy-hughes]

AOG - "andy-hughes

/// An unfounded supposition - so not really worthy of a response. ///"

Making a supposition about my position in circumstances that ceased nine years before I was born is exactly what I said it was - an unfounded supposition - but if you want a response - here it is -

we could wonder about such hypothetical situations until the earth spins off its axis, but it gets us no-where, do it is something of a waste of time. You could ponder whether my attitude to racism would be different if I had been born black - but what would be the point? Hence my initial response.


// More unfounded supposition. ///

It is exactly that. As I pointed out, you have no reason to presume that this woman is going to be a burden on the Benefits system - it simply suits your default position that all ISIS supporters must be wastrels and scroungers - because that is the inference you give whenever you post about them - but, and this is my point - in this individual case, you have no evidence whatsoever, so it is not a valid point.
You just cannot dismiss valid points by simply just dismissing them in such a way.

"Why did you bother carrying out those copy & paste exercises, if you didn't want to respond, why didn't you just ignore them, just as you did my 'Bumper' remark?"

As to my comment about 'bumpers' - if you wish to nit pick - please feel free to substitute this observation - "People make mistakes, that's why the put rubbers on the end of pencils." They still do put rubbers on the end of pencils, so you are spared the tiresome task of picking me up on the historical relevence of a light-hearted observation.

[naomi24]

//it simply suits your default position that all ISIS supporters must be wastrels and scroungers//

I’ll pick up on that if I may. I don’t know if all ISIS supporters are wastrels and scroungers, but I do know that they are enemies of this country and as such warrant no help from us in any way whatsoever.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - "I’ll pick up on that if I may. I don’t know if all ISIS supporters are wastrels and scroungers, but I do know that they are enemies of this country and as such warrant no help from us in any way whatsoever."

You may for me - certainly.

But my contention is that it is perfectly possible for anyone to realise that a path chosen was wrong - and surely as a civilised society we cannot be so hard and cold as to say 'That was your choice - so live with it'.

If we had done that with Northern Ireland, there would have been no Peace Process - in fact, if we had done that with Germany, the war could still be going on now.

There has to be a point where, individually, or nationally we say to others - you accept that your choices were wrong, but if you accept that, we are able to move forward.

If we fail to do that, we are doomed to carry on every conflict large or small because we are unable to move on.

[agchristie]

Andy // If we had done that with Northern Ireland, there would have been no Peace Process - in fact, if we had done that with Germany, the war could still be going on now.//

There can be no dialogue with ISIS itself so unless they are defeated they will remain a threat

[andy-hughes]

agchristie - "There can be no dialogue with ISIS itself so unless they are defeated they will remain a threat "

There can always be dialogue.

It may be supremely difficult to get it started, but it is there.

[naomi24]

andy-hughes, despite numerous conversations on this subject you consistently fail to recognise that the philosophy that is Islam and the mind-set that Islam imparts can be compared to no other. Radical Islam doesn’t compromise. If you could bring yourself to understand that you would understand that there can never be dialogue.

[retrocop]

Any volunteers to pop over and start a dialogue with IS ?

[Baldric]

Oh Naomi, Pleeeease! If AH says one can talk to ISIS then one can talk to ISIS.
I'm just waiting on him packing his bag and getting out there to show us how wrong we all are!

[ladybirder]

He could take Helencutiepie with him to spread the love.