Manslaughter by proxy?

[R1Geezer]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7909 563.stm
both these sound like nasty bits of work and jail is the best place for them, but can someone clarify. It seems that one person can be prosecuted for invoking actions in another. Can anyone explain the limit of this I mean if a comment by person A induces crime in person B under what curcumstances can A be prosecuted? I'm not making any points here, just trying to understand the law.

[Octavius]

Have you not heard of the Derek Bentley case?

[VHG]

I seem to remember in the Derek Bently case he said "Let him have it" to a friend who had a gun.

The friend shot and killed a policeman.

Bentley was found guilty and hung, but the person who fired the gun was under 18 so could not be hung.

[VHG]

Of course this was in 1952 so the case may turn out different nowadays.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Bentley

[dot.hawkes]

It is similar to the accomplice who supplied the gun and hid the gun in the case of the shooting of Rhys Jones I believe.

In this latest case it was a completely uncontrolled act of studidity and an excessive reaction to a mundane and simple misunderstanding. The couple were like a timebomb, it is fantasital to believe that there would be a couple who both had so similar a character that one goes ballistic and another carried it on and gets violent, they must have been a riot to live next door to.

[Oneeyedvic]

they must have been a riot to live next door to.

I am sure we will find out before the end of the week - with the gutter press working as they do.

[dot.hawkes]

Yeah Vic you're probably right, bet their neighbours are negotiating photo ops and press interviews as we type!

[123everton]

Anthony walker is a similar caes too.
In relation to the story it epitomises everything that has gone wrong with this country.
Because somebody objected to her jumping the queue (and I'd wager she did) someone was going to get at least beat up.
That in microcosm is Britain today, "can you pick dog's poo up please?"
"No! Do you wanna fight about it?"
"can you put your rubbish in the bin please?"
"No! You wanna fight about it?" etc etc
I saw a schools programme the other week about anti social behaviour it featured a retired Colonel (served in Bosnia) this lad turned round and said "yeah, but we will stand up for ourselves nowadays" noone asked, but what if you're wrong?
In Britain today we value power above kindness

[123everton]

Coincidentally she was "shocked and disgusted when he hit the wrong person" tells you everything about the scraggy arsed skank.

[dot.hawkes]

yeah but still went out of her way to point him in the direction of the real 'culprit'

[Rosetta]

I hadn't realised incitement in law went so far back

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement

I would guess similar principles were used well before this to stop "agitators" stirring up crowds.

[Octavius]

I think they tried to use the mens rea argument in the Bentley case I mentioned above.

It seems the general medical opinion at the time, was that he had the mental age of an 11 year old.

[Buenchico]

The common law offence of 'Incitement' may well go a long way back but it was abolished by Section 59 of the Serious Crime Act 2007.

The woman in the case you refer to, R1Geezer, could have been prosecuted under Part 2 of the Serious Crime Act 2007 with the offence of 'encouraging or assisting an offence' (using either Section 44 or Section 45 of the Act):
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegT ype=All+Legislation&title=serious+crime&Year=2 007&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersP ower=0&blanketAmendment=0&sortAlpha=0&TYPE=QS& PageNumber=1&NavFrom=0&parentActiveTextDocId=3 418096&ActiveTextDocId=3418153&filesize=48631

However the CPS seem to have preferred to use a charge of manslaughter. There are three ways (in law) in which manslaughter can be committed. One of these is "conduct, taking the form of an unlawful act involving a danger of some harm, that killed". It seems that the prosecution were able to convince the jury that the woman's act was unlawful (possibly by reference to the legislation referred to above) and involved a danger of harm that resulted in the death of the victim.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/homicide_mu rder_and_manslaughter/

Chris

[kinell]

lowlife like this who have relationships with these knuckle-draggers should also be permanently excluded from normal society