News2 mins ago
Praying in hospital.
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If being prayed for in hospital gives a patient comfort there is probably no harm but one should point out, that when a double blind experiment was carried out in the US ten years ago, on a large group of cardiac patients awaiting by-pass surgery , it was the group who were not prayed for who made the best recovery in both the short and long term.
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I find the idea of a double-blind test about prayer genuinely comical. It conjures up a picture of God sitting there wondering whether he should co-operate or not. "Hmm," he would be saying, "that lot want me to cure sample A and not sample B. Shall I do it? If so, why? If I wanted to prove that praying works I've got a million more impressive ways of doing it than that."
Oh, the daft things people do....
Oh, the daft things people do....
Modeller, I gave this answer to your questions in the Catholic Christians thread.
1. Definitions for devout:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&cr=countr yUK%7CcountryGB&defl=en&q=define:devout&ei=GfW OSZHIEaTJjAfZotCzCg&sa=X&oi=glossary_definitio n&ct=title
2. Not necessarily.
3. Often.
4. If they�re truly devout, I imagine they do their best to obey the rules, but there's no doubt that others do pick and choose.
Chakka, If he's got a million more impressive ways, I wish he'd stop playing games with people's minds and do something positive.
1. Definitions for devout:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&cr=countr yUK%7CcountryGB&defl=en&q=define:devout&ei=GfW OSZHIEaTJjAfZotCzCg&sa=X&oi=glossary_definitio n&ct=title
2. Not necessarily.
3. Often.
4. If they�re truly devout, I imagine they do their best to obey the rules, but there's no doubt that others do pick and choose.
Chakka, If he's got a million more impressive ways, I wish he'd stop playing games with people's minds and do something positive.
Sorry, Modeller, that link went wrong.
Here's what it said,
Definitions of devout on the Web:
deeply religious; "a god-fearing and law-abiding people"
dear: earnest; "one's dearest wish"; "devout wishes for their success"; "heartfelt condolences"
A devotee; A devotional composition, or part of a composition; devotion; Devoted to religion or to religious feelings and duties; absorbed in ...
devoutly - in a devout and pious manner; "she was devoutly Catholic"
devoutness - piety by virtue of being devout
Here's what it said,
Definitions of devout on the Web:
deeply religious; "a god-fearing and law-abiding people"
dear: earnest; "one's dearest wish"; "devout wishes for their success"; "heartfelt condolences"
A devotee; A devotional composition, or part of a composition; devotion; Devoted to religion or to religious feelings and duties; absorbed in ...
devoutly - in a devout and pious manner; "she was devoutly Catholic"
devoutness - piety by virtue of being devout
modeller, when someone describes themselves as devout, why don't you ask them</i< what they mean?
1. Do they believe everything their clerics tell them ?
2. Do they believe everything in their holy book ?
3. Do they obey all the rules laid down by their religion?
4. Do they pick and choose the bits they want ?
For some it could be all 4, for others it could be just 1, or just 2, or 2 and 3, or 1 and 4. So whoever claims to be devout, should answer for themselves really.
1. Do they believe everything their clerics tell them ?
2. Do they believe everything in their holy book ?
3. Do they obey all the rules laid down by their religion?
4. Do they pick and choose the bits they want ?
For some it could be all 4, for others it could be just 1, or just 2, or 2 and 3, or 1 and 4. So whoever claims to be devout, should answer for themselves really.
I've said somewhere I'm quite a devout catholic which and to me that means following the way I see the teachings of the catholic church.
I do hold true some of their teachings and I do listen to my priest, however, I can't agree with all the pope says, like anything ,religion is personal to you, and I can't agree with his belief on homosexuality.
I believe it is wrong to judge others in real life as the bible tells us not to. No christian catholic or not can condone the activities of many of the catholic priests abusing children.
I go to mass (when I have been ill I will ask the priest to come to the house)I go to confession I would never take communion unless I had been to confession. I have never used any birth control other than that advise by the catholic
church - yes I have 5 children.
I use the term devout catholic as opposed to christian merely to mean I follow the teachings of my church my daughter would never say she is a devout catholic but she would say she is catholic as she was christened and bought up in the faith.
I do hold true some of their teachings and I do listen to my priest, however, I can't agree with all the pope says, like anything ,religion is personal to you, and I can't agree with his belief on homosexuality.
I believe it is wrong to judge others in real life as the bible tells us not to. No christian catholic or not can condone the activities of many of the catholic priests abusing children.
I go to mass (when I have been ill I will ask the priest to come to the house)I go to confession I would never take communion unless I had been to confession. I have never used any birth control other than that advise by the catholic
church - yes I have 5 children.
I use the term devout catholic as opposed to christian merely to mean I follow the teachings of my church my daughter would never say she is a devout catholic but she would say she is catholic as she was christened and bought up in the faith.
One explanation for the original experiment could be that those who were prayed for felt they didn't have to do anything to recover, as it was all being done by something else. Those who weren't prayed for felt like they needed to do the work to recover, not someone else. A bit like Locus of Control I guess.
IMO if someone prays/offers to pray for someone, it's no big deal, it doesn't do any harm and sometimes the thought alone may make someone feel a bit more positive. I feel sorry for the nurse who has been in the news lately, she was only doing what she thought was right. She didn't force it, she simply offered to pray for patients. It's like an extended form of caring and as a nurse she is required to not only look after the physical aspects of the patient, she also need to look after them spiritually and psychologically.
IMO if someone prays/offers to pray for someone, it's no big deal, it doesn't do any harm and sometimes the thought alone may make someone feel a bit more positive. I feel sorry for the nurse who has been in the news lately, she was only doing what she thought was right. She didn't force it, she simply offered to pray for patients. It's like an extended form of caring and as a nurse she is required to not only look after the physical aspects of the patient, she also need to look after them spiritually and psychologically.
Chakka35 is right to point out that the whole concept behind this type of experiment is ludicrous because it relies on god joining in and playing his assigned role accordingly - ie dutifully helping only the people that are prayed for.
What you have to consider is that these tests are probably instigated by atheists for the purpose of proving what they already know, ie that praying has no effect. Therefore the paradoxical silliness of what they're doing doesn't really occur to them.
What you have to consider is that these tests are probably instigated by atheists for the purpose of proving what they already know, ie that praying has no effect. Therefore the paradoxical silliness of what they're doing doesn't really occur to them.
Speaking as someone who has been in hospital on more than one occasion I can say clearly and with some conviction when you're ill you know you're ill, when you're very ill. you KNOW you're very ill and there's nothing anyone can say or do to make you feel worse. Whenever I have been in that situation (even as a small boy) my main concern was to stop other people worrying about me.
Prayer works, when his holiness the Pope lay dying and people gathered to pray outside, that must have moved him, that must have given him strength and confirmation of a life well lived (if people did the same for me I'd die smiling), similarly during the Russo/Polish war the novena galvanised the nation, inspired it's leader and defined the nature of the second republic.
The people who were in the tsunami came out of it (from what I've read) with their faith intact, and again Jews coming out of the camps became more religious not less as a a result of the holocaust.
I'll spin a question round that I've been asked on here (lurid though it is, forgive me) if you're child was ill and the Dr. said there was nothing more they could do, would you pray, or would you just give up?
I'm not asking would you pray to the bilical God all I'm asking is would you pray?
Prayer works, when his holiness the Pope lay dying and people gathered to pray outside, that must have moved him, that must have given him strength and confirmation of a life well lived (if people did the same for me I'd die smiling), similarly during the Russo/Polish war the novena galvanised the nation, inspired it's leader and defined the nature of the second republic.
The people who were in the tsunami came out of it (from what I've read) with their faith intact, and again Jews coming out of the camps became more religious not less as a a result of the holocaust.
I'll spin a question round that I've been asked on here (lurid though it is, forgive me) if you're child was ill and the Dr. said there was nothing more they could do, would you pray, or would you just give up?
I'm not asking would you pray to the bilical God all I'm asking is would you pray?
Speaking as someone who has been in hospital on more than one occasion I can say clearly and with some conviction when you're ill you know you're ill, when you're very ill. you KNOW you're very ill and there's nothing anyone can say or do to make you feel worse.
You, possibly. It's not universally true. It's well documented that how others react to a patient can greatly influence prognosis.
Whenever I have been in that situation (even as a small boy) my main concern was to stop other people worrying about me.
Prayer works
As a supernatural intervention of God, or in the same way a placebo does?
when his holiness the Pope lay dying and people gathered to pray outside, that must have moved him, that must have given him strength and confirmation of a life well lived (if people did the same for me I'd die smiling),
Fair enough, but you're offering nothing to support your belief that prayer works in any supernatural way.
similarly during the Russo/Polish war the novena galvanised the nation, inspired it's leader and defined the nature of the second republic.
Equally similarly, the people who crashed planes into the WTC all prayed most devoutly before carrying out their little faith-inspired acts. That prayer/faith motivates people is beyond question. Interestingly, prayer motives people of *all* religions and faiths, rather than just some. Either the Bah'ai have it right, or what we're seeing is a very real but entirely non-supernatural psychological experience.
cont.
You, possibly. It's not universally true. It's well documented that how others react to a patient can greatly influence prognosis.
Whenever I have been in that situation (even as a small boy) my main concern was to stop other people worrying about me.
Prayer works
As a supernatural intervention of God, or in the same way a placebo does?
when his holiness the Pope lay dying and people gathered to pray outside, that must have moved him, that must have given him strength and confirmation of a life well lived (if people did the same for me I'd die smiling),
Fair enough, but you're offering nothing to support your belief that prayer works in any supernatural way.
similarly during the Russo/Polish war the novena galvanised the nation, inspired it's leader and defined the nature of the second republic.
Equally similarly, the people who crashed planes into the WTC all prayed most devoutly before carrying out their little faith-inspired acts. That prayer/faith motivates people is beyond question. Interestingly, prayer motives people of *all* religions and faiths, rather than just some. Either the Bah'ai have it right, or what we're seeing is a very real but entirely non-supernatural psychological experience.
cont.
The people who were in the tsunami came out of it (from what I've read) with their faith intact,
What about those who died? Did any surviving atheists convert as a consequence? And was there any statistical patterns to the survival rates of believers and unbelievers?
and again Jews coming out of the camps became more religious not less as a a result of the holocaust.
Which may or may not be the case (Primo Levi, for example?) but says nothing about whether prayer works. I would imagine that one's identity, however concieved, would naturally assume a greater importance if someone tried to kill you because of it.
if you're child was ill and the Dr. said there was nothing more they could do, would you pray, or would you just give up?
I'm not asking would you pray to the bilical God all I'm asking is would you pray?
You offer an either/or when other responses exist. I would fervently hope that the doctors were wrong or that there was one of those rare, but none-the-less genuine cases where a patient recovers against the odds (I'm aware that many would call such a thing a 'miracle'), but I don't believe I'd pray, no.
What about those who died? Did any surviving atheists convert as a consequence? And was there any statistical patterns to the survival rates of believers and unbelievers?
and again Jews coming out of the camps became more religious not less as a a result of the holocaust.
Which may or may not be the case (Primo Levi, for example?) but says nothing about whether prayer works. I would imagine that one's identity, however concieved, would naturally assume a greater importance if someone tried to kill you because of it.
if you're child was ill and the Dr. said there was nothing more they could do, would you pray, or would you just give up?
I'm not asking would you pray to the bilical God all I'm asking is would you pray?
You offer an either/or when other responses exist. I would fervently hope that the doctors were wrong or that there was one of those rare, but none-the-less genuine cases where a patient recovers against the odds (I'm aware that many would call such a thing a 'miracle'), but I don't believe I'd pray, no.
Well I am in two minds really. Of course many of my relatives would be sending emails for the Pope to intervene, or pleading with the spirit of Padre Pio, or somesuch in my name and I would welcome that as they'd believe they are contributing to my wellbeing, whether I survived or floated off to the geezer in the heavens, they would have played their part for the salvation of my life or my soul.
If I was unwittingly engaged in an experiment where I was in a cardiac ward, possibly just at the threshold of God�s waiting room but not quite, and told that prayers or libations were being said for me en masse, then I may show an inkling of concern that things are so bad even the docs have said prayer is me only hope. My health might regress an�all just like the guinea pigs in the test.
On balance, I�d say a little prayer for me, and let those that want to pray for me, pray. And those that want to have a drink on me down the pub, well they should just feel guilty!
If I was unwittingly engaged in an experiment where I was in a cardiac ward, possibly just at the threshold of God�s waiting room but not quite, and told that prayers or libations were being said for me en masse, then I may show an inkling of concern that things are so bad even the docs have said prayer is me only hope. My health might regress an�all just like the guinea pigs in the test.
On balance, I�d say a little prayer for me, and let those that want to pray for me, pray. And those that want to have a drink on me down the pub, well they should just feel guilty!
ludwig, the comical aspect of prayer-trials is touched on in Dawkins' TGD where he conjures up a Bob Newhart telephone sketch in which he and God are arguing about the rules.
The major trial he then describes was not conducted by atheists but by the highly religious Templeton Foundation and it cost $2.4 million. It was run by a Dr Benson who was already convinced that intercessory praying works. Some objectivity!
The results were that there was no difference in recovery rates between the prayed-for and the not-prayed-for, though there was a difference between those who knew they were being prayed for and those who didn't. As described above, the former suffered more complications.
The major trial he then describes was not conducted by atheists but by the highly religious Templeton Foundation and it cost $2.4 million. It was run by a Dr Benson who was already convinced that intercessory praying works. Some objectivity!
The results were that there was no difference in recovery rates between the prayed-for and the not-prayed-for, though there was a difference between those who knew they were being prayed for and those who didn't. As described above, the former suffered more complications.
I would like to point out however that some of you are not clear what the term double blind testing means. It means if I'm right that neither the patients nor the doctors nor the testers know who is being prayed for and who is not, and it is only later when that the results are collated that any conclusions can be drawn . If you go into Google you can see that numerous double blind tests have been made and overall there has been no statistical proof either way . With regards to that nurse it has been my experience in hospital that religious people have difficulty in hiding their strong belief and vulnerable patients don't like to say No!.
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