Richard Dawkins - Faith School Menace?

[naomi24]

Did anyone else see this on Wednesday night? One in three of our schools are now faith schools funded by the tax payer, but in the area of religious education not only do some of them teach the subject for up to four times longer each week than other schools, they are left to do their own thing and have their own regulators. Additionally, the Islamic school taught creationism and a version of evolution but left the students to make up their own minds on which was true. Needless to say when asked all, without exception, said they believed the Koran‘s version - and alarmingly their Science teacher said the same. Can you imagine the ‘make your own mind up' scenario being applied to any other subject - and that being acceptable to any school that cares about the standard of education it offers, or more particularly to a government that sets a national curriculum? Religion demands that we close our eyes to its failings - and because it demands it, we do it regardless of the effect it has on future generations.

Your thoughts?

[joggerjayne]

Anyone who convinces themselves that the world, and universe, were "created" by a supernatural being ...

... call them God, Allah, Wotan, the JuJu, or whatever)

... must sacrifice some intellectual credibility.

[joggerjayne]

Hello, Wyz.

He was here for a few days during the week, but yes ... it was jolly, thank you.

How have you been ?

J x

[keyplus90]

////I gave up reading what he spouts ages ago,/////

What made you change your mind now?

Wyz - you are changing your name as well as your avatar almost everyday. I wonder why? Any way what is the difference between Muslims you know and me?

Nothing more to say as I am waiting for Naomi to give me a verse from Quran where it is claimed that mountains stop EARTHQUAKE.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, You called? Goodness! Now this really is getting confusing. Why might the earth move? (Wyzard and Jayne, behave! We're talking serious science here!). ;o)

Earthquake, landslide, volcanic eruption, extreme weather conditions? Can't think of any more right now, but never mind because whatever the reason, mountains don't stop the earth moving as the Koran suggests. But then of course if you look at your bona fide Islamic websites, as I always do, you'll find a number of questions from Muslims relating to these verses asking specifically about mountains preventing earthquakes - and the students on the Richard Dawkins programme definitely thought that mountains were there to hold the earth down. Having said that I somehow get the impression that the Islamic scholars whose life's work it is to twist the words of the Koran to make them fit in with modern science have hit upon yet another bright idea to explain the inconsistencies in the Koran because on those same bona fide websites you'll also find those so-called scholars saying that these verses don't actually mean what they say, but rather that mountains stabilize the earth and prevent it from being thrown completely out of orbit - or some such nonsense. Good try guys - but as usual, not good enough.

continued....

[naomi24]

....continued


So where is the logical spanner in the works? Let's see. We know that the earth is some 4.5 billion years old, and the oldest mountain range is estimated to be some 3.5 billion years. We also know that mountains are formed and destroyed over time. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that if the earth existed and remained within its orbit for around 1 billion years without the assistance of the mountains that your scholars say are necessary to provide stability, and has continued to remain stable in its orbit for another 3.5 billion years regardless of the changes that nature has brought to its geological structure, then its stability cannot be as a result of the presence of mountains. Or to put it simply, why would an Almighty Allah need to make mountains in order to stablilise a planet? Think again Keyplus - or better still, just give it a rest. Your book is wrong.

Incidentally, Keyplus, I've met hundreds of Muslims all over the world, but I've never met one that disgraces Islam as you do.

[birdie1971]

I'm amazed that after all these debates about the validity of the Koran, you still insist that it explains just about every scientific principal that exists. Your dogged determination to cling to the irrational belief that a book written about 1400 years ago contains a rough description of every scientific discovery ever made and that ever will be made is simply lamentable.

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad to watch a grown man make unsubstantiated claims*, attempt to discredit his detractors by making hurtful and childish allegations (as you have done with me by telling another member of AB that I have a psychological disorder [your exact phrase was, “a dementia patient”] and that I am a drug addict**), and by insulting people in the most spiteful way possible.

I've said it before Keyplus and I'll never tire of saying it – the Koran is not the work of God nor is it the work of a Prophet. It is the work of gullible, uneducated and above all, fallible human beings.


* Your quote, “...But my previous experiences have shown that you do not agree with even best known scientists when they say something which proves you wrong.” - I'd love to see an example of this. Can you please provide a link that shows a reputable scientist agreeing with a scientific theory that is contained within the Koran about which Naomi (or myself) disagrees with?

** http://www.theanswerb...Question896099-9.html

[naomi24]

Birdie, .......and you didn't get an (e) for it either. As always with his multitude of unfounded allegations, I've asked him for evidence, but of course he can't provide it because it doesn't exist.

As often happens when Keyplus joins a debate, we have once again ended up with a thread that centres upon the errors contained within the Koran. His abiding refusal to accept the reality of indisputable proof presents confirmation of the negative effect of religion on the human intellect, and hence serves only to strengthen the case for the abolition of faith schools.

[keyplus90]

Naomi and my little birdi- If a thread ends up with what you claim then it does so because even my simple posts are pulled into a debate towards validity of Islam. And when questions are asked then answers must be given. Although even then few will keep on crying “we have not received an answer”.

OK, now towards evidence that you do not agree with well known scientists. To start with you do not agree with this,

http://www.youtube.co...E3SYw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.co...JO3hM&feature=related

Here are more and make sure you watch VIDEO and not text and see if someone is standing behind them with a sword to force them to give these statements.

http://scienceislam.com/scientists_quran.php

And I know why, because he says what you do not WANT to accept. For you residence scientists of AB are the most reliable as they agree with you and you (Naomi) even once said that degrees, qualification, accomplishments etc do not make any difference (very logical) but I know your logics have serious limits. But fortunately others do not think the way you do. You have proved Quran wrong so many times (according to you) but again fortunately people do not depend upon your analysis and you don’t get that do you? Who would they believe for example, Dr Keith Moore or someone called Naomi, or birdie?

[keyplus90]

Lets get to the topic on hand now. Anyone with the most basic knowledge of Arabic language knows that in your given verses Quran does not speak about EATHQUAKE. Word for earthquake is “Zilzal” and it only takes one look to confirm that as Quran has a whole chapter known as Zilzal,

http://www.harunyahya...ran_translation99.php

But when you depend upon few websites then usually they leave you in no man land where you look stupid.

Now I will give you scientific evidence to prove the verse YOU GAVE me correct. But I have no doubt you would not agree with this guy either although his book “EARTH” on geology is taught in most of the Universities. Read about him first and then have doubt about his ability (I am sure you would do your best, with the help of your partners).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Press

First of all this what Quran says, Nowhere the word “Zilzal” has been used but how do you know as you can’t read Arabic neither do the one who manage the website you get your information from.

21:31. And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance.

On this website you may read (with page references) what Dr Press said,

http://scienceislam.com/quran_mountains.php

[keyplus90]

But do not just rely on the website (as it is Islamic, which you do not trust) instead here is his book spend some money and see on those pages he says what has been claimed.

http://www.amazon.com...k-Press/dp/0716717433

But you would not get it would you and I know why,

Wyz or Wiz – my question is still there,
///Any way what is the difference between Muslims you know and me?///

[WaldoMcFroog]

I have a doctorate in mathematics. I say 2+2=5. You do not have a doctorate in mathematics. By your logic, 2+2 now equals 5 because someone with a qualification made an assertion.

Qualifications may be an indication of expertise, but they are not a guarantee that everything they say is true. Evidence is what is required, and under normal circumstances one would hope a qualified scientist would provide it. You rely on the fact that Keith Moore has credentials, but ignore the fact that he has no evidence.

Evidence NOT qualifications, got it? That's why people disbelieve you; your so-called experts assert in contradiction with the EVIDENCE.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Or, having just read your page on mountains, the claim is so vague as to be meaningless and wrong in several significant ways.

Mountains most certainly do not resemble pegs, at least any that I've seen. The claim is just wrong. Merely saying, "there's more under the surface than on top" is not really close enough to claim this is an accurate description! Nor do they act to stabilse the plates on the mantle - plates are supported by isostacy (essentially boyancy). The reason plates are thicker under mountains is because otherwise they couldn't support the weight. If they were thinner, you wouldn't have a mountain.

Then there's this other cracker from the Koran: "And the mountains, how they are firmly fixed" (88:19, 79.32). Really? We'll have to discard plate techtonics then.

Dr Press is being completely inapprorpriately used to support claims he would unquestionably reject.

You need a better source that this Dr Naik you continually quote. He sucks.