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What is the Soul?
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After the question on spririts being reborn below. I'd love to know what people think the soul is (If they believe in it)
Particularly interested in whether you think the soul has memory and personality and if so what happens when there is brain damage and these are lost or changed.
Also be interested to know when the soul becomes part of people and where souls came/come from.
Finally if you men someone without a soul how would you know?
Particularly interested in whether you think the soul has memory and personality and if so what happens when there is brain damage and these are lost or changed.
Also be interested to know when the soul becomes part of people and where souls came/come from.
Finally if you men someone without a soul how would you know?
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Jake, As you already know I believe people have, for want of a better word, a soul. Obviously I don't know what it consists of - but I imagine it is a combination of every memory and every emotion we experience, and I don't believe brain damage would affect it in the way you suggest.
I think the ability to retain emotion and memory is integral to the human being, and develops along with everything else - in the mother's womb.
I've met a few heartless people in my time, but I don't believe anyone doesn't have a soul. :o)
I think the ability to retain emotion and memory is integral to the human being, and develops along with everything else - in the mother's womb.
I've met a few heartless people in my time, but I don't believe anyone doesn't have a soul. :o)
cliché alert.
i consider that any concept of soul is just linked to a life and its individual personality. its like a single candle flame. sounds a bit religio-spiritual, but its more grounded than that. imagine if a life is like one of those little birthday candles. the life is lit and then it exists/survives and then it goes out. there is no before or after, except the original spark which is the product of another life/flame and the after - which is the bin (grave/atmosphere). no memory before or after.
if the flame is prematurely blown out or is extinguished, then it might be relit, but that would be a different flame on the same candle (same appearance and features etc).
the candle flame and its existence may be affected by the flame supply and the conditions surrounding it throughout its wick life, other than that its just cradle to grave and hopefully a long bright light between, which to me is what others might call the soul, but i would call personality/life force.
i consider that any concept of soul is just linked to a life and its individual personality. its like a single candle flame. sounds a bit religio-spiritual, but its more grounded than that. imagine if a life is like one of those little birthday candles. the life is lit and then it exists/survives and then it goes out. there is no before or after, except the original spark which is the product of another life/flame and the after - which is the bin (grave/atmosphere). no memory before or after.
if the flame is prematurely blown out or is extinguished, then it might be relit, but that would be a different flame on the same candle (same appearance and features etc).
the candle flame and its existence may be affected by the flame supply and the conditions surrounding it throughout its wick life, other than that its just cradle to grave and hopefully a long bright light between, which to me is what others might call the soul, but i would call personality/life force.
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well you say latin i say etruscan, it makes not much odds. persona was derived from the etruscan word phersu which was really about the masks actors wore during stage plays. so yes, persona is what one might ‘project’ as a personality to others (carl jung waffled on a lot about it) but natural personality is true to self. the persona enables the individual to adapt to society’s demands. i’m not stifling anyone’s exploration of other facets, just giving my opinion that i think soul memory and this crossover stuff is just something transpiring from the mind's eye.
My view is that is that the soul is a quaint but outmoded explanation for the workings of the brain that are not visible to the eye. It was a way to understand conciousness, memory, beliefs, cognitive processes etc, that are still to this date not fully understood. Other religious notions for our world and condition have been more easily given a rational explanation by science so generally, have been given up by most other than the most ardent believers. So given I don't believe the concept has any validity I don't think 'it' exists to come or go. I do think it is emotionally a comforting idea, it isn't always pleasant to think our and our loved ones existence is only temporary. So the idea that the 'soul' isn't extinguished has its attractions, but then Santa Claus is good fun for children.
On anouther note, in News your refer to evidence that religious beliefs are genetic rather than environmental. Surely that can not be true, is there 'evidence' that genetically some people are more disposed to believing in fairy's and hobgoblins?
On anouther note, in News your refer to evidence that religious beliefs are genetic rather than environmental. Surely that can not be true, is there 'evidence' that genetically some people are more disposed to believing in fairy's and hobgoblins?
It strikes me that in religious thought the concept of God is not as important as that of the Soul.
It is the explanation of an "after-life" that is common to all religion, even those that have a weak notion of God such as Budhism.
However this notion of a soul is completely bound up with identity. Something that makes you well "you" and not someone else.
The trouble is what makes You the same person that you were when you were a child? Well really it's your personality and your memories isn't it?
We all know that someone is quite able to lose those memories we see it everyday. People's personalities are controlled by their brains. People with serious head trauma can undergo severe personality changes or even just through psycological trauma.
So what's left then of the immortal soul? We could think of it as just the spark of conciousness but if it can be damaged or extinguished it's not really a soul is it?
And if something, anything, can come into existance it can be destroyed - it's simply the reverse process
So without an immortal soul what is God but an extremely powerful extra-terrestrial?
This is a core reason I am an athiest - not because I don't "believe" in God but because I believe the no reason to think that the immortal soul is anything more than an illusion
It is the explanation of an "after-life" that is common to all religion, even those that have a weak notion of God such as Budhism.
However this notion of a soul is completely bound up with identity. Something that makes you well "you" and not someone else.
The trouble is what makes You the same person that you were when you were a child? Well really it's your personality and your memories isn't it?
We all know that someone is quite able to lose those memories we see it everyday. People's personalities are controlled by their brains. People with serious head trauma can undergo severe personality changes or even just through psycological trauma.
So what's left then of the immortal soul? We could think of it as just the spark of conciousness but if it can be damaged or extinguished it's not really a soul is it?
And if something, anything, can come into existance it can be destroyed - it's simply the reverse process
So without an immortal soul what is God but an extremely powerful extra-terrestrial?
This is a core reason I am an athiest - not because I don't "believe" in God but because I believe the no reason to think that the immortal soul is anything more than an illusion
I have no belief in the concept of an immortal soul, so I guess that would make me one of these soulless types you might meet, jtp :) It might well become evident to an evangelising religious type as my eyes start to glaze over when they start rattling on about religion and/or spirituality :)
Those with any sort of religious or spiritual conviction almost automatically have to believe in the existence of such a thing though, I would have thought.
Reading the accounts of the work in the early 20th century about determining the weight of the soul made for entertaining reading, and the subsequent cultural meme of "21g" has even been made into a film, if memory serves.
Those with any sort of religious or spiritual conviction almost automatically have to believe in the existence of such a thing though, I would have thought.
Reading the accounts of the work in the early 20th century about determining the weight of the soul made for entertaining reading, and the subsequent cultural meme of "21g" has even been made into a film, if memory serves.
Jake, The association that religion, and you and others, have made between religious faith and the soul is completely spurious. You say what can be created can be destroyed, but as far as I’m aware, energy cannot be destroyed.. In my opinion, thoughts, anger, love, pain, distress, happiness, fear, hope - all these experiences and emotions create forms of energy, and I think this is what the soul consists of.
You ask what makes you the same person you were as a child? None of us are the same people we were as children. Experience of life sees to that. When you speak of brain damage, and the results that become outwardly obvious to you, you cannot know what the victim is really experiencing, thinking or feeling. Similarly with a severely mentally disabled person., how can you possibly know what thoughts or feelings he is experiencing? You can’t. You can only make assumptions based on your own unproven opinions.
Cont….
You ask what makes you the same person you were as a child? None of us are the same people we were as children. Experience of life sees to that. When you speak of brain damage, and the results that become outwardly obvious to you, you cannot know what the victim is really experiencing, thinking or feeling. Similarly with a severely mentally disabled person., how can you possibly know what thoughts or feelings he is experiencing? You can’t. You can only make assumptions based on your own unproven opinions.
Cont….
Cont….
I question the reasoning of scientists who don’t actually know the answer, but nevertheless say it’s all nonsense. If they don’t know then rather than risk the possibility of offering inaccurate information and of being proven wrong at sometime in the future, surely the truly scientific mind would admit it doesn’t know and make every effort to search for a viable answer.
The core reason I am an atheist is that I don’t believe anything is supernatural - but I do believe that God was, indeed, a powerful extra-terrestrial.
I question the reasoning of scientists who don’t actually know the answer, but nevertheless say it’s all nonsense. If they don’t know then rather than risk the possibility of offering inaccurate information and of being proven wrong at sometime in the future, surely the truly scientific mind would admit it doesn’t know and make every effort to search for a viable answer.
The core reason I am an atheist is that I don’t believe anything is supernatural - but I do believe that God was, indeed, a powerful extra-terrestrial.
ruby, this is quite a good article which i beleeve refsr to your query. i particularly like the quote "In some ‘no-one-will-ever-know’ instances, the threat of detection may appear deceivingly low, so individuals are tempted to profit from cheating tactics."
http://www.qub.ac.uk/schools/InstituteofCognitionCulture/FileUploadPage/Filetoupload,90224,en.pdf
http://www.qub.ac.uk/schools/InstituteofCognitionCulture/FileUploadPage/Filetoupload,90224,en.pdf
Naomi - that's a really good point.
I didn't go into details because I didn't want to muddy the waters but energy/matter cammot be destroyed because itis "elemental" in other words it has no component parts that are brought together to create it and therefore can be taken apart to distroy it.
For a soul to be elemental it would have to be incapable of change a change would imply that a component part of it changed and therefore it would not be elemtal. Or it's entirity would change in which case it would not be the "same" soul.
A soul must be able to change to accomodate memory and personality as it evolves in a human lifetime.
Additionally for every soul to be unique and yet the same (in as much as it is identifyable as a human soul) does imply structure.
Therefore any notion of a soul that is like this ( and I think most notions of a soul are like this ) must be capable of destruction.
I didn't go into details because I didn't want to muddy the waters but energy/matter cammot be destroyed because itis "elemental" in other words it has no component parts that are brought together to create it and therefore can be taken apart to distroy it.
For a soul to be elemental it would have to be incapable of change a change would imply that a component part of it changed and therefore it would not be elemtal. Or it's entirity would change in which case it would not be the "same" soul.
A soul must be able to change to accomodate memory and personality as it evolves in a human lifetime.
Additionally for every soul to be unique and yet the same (in as much as it is identifyable as a human soul) does imply structure.
Therefore any notion of a soul that is like this ( and I think most notions of a soul are like this ) must be capable of destruction.
Jake, I’m not a scientist, and I’m probably way off beam here, but doesn’t that assume that thoughts, emotions, etc, etc, each consist of different forms of energy? And what if there exist energy forms and/or physical laws that we have yet to discover? Actually, I don’t even know why I’m talking about an ‘eternal’ soul. Maybe it isn’t ‘eternal’. Maybe that’s just a pipedream of the religious. Perhaps it is capable of being destroyed, but even if that’s true, it doesn’t follow that it’s impossible for it to exist at all.
(Thanks for asking this question, Jake. It’s such an interesting subject - although I don’t think my husband thought so when, after 14 hours at the office, he came home ready for his dinner and few glasses of wine, only to be hit with this! Unsurprisingly his response wasn’t entirely enthusiastic - although, to give him his due, he did make a token effort. Wouldn’t dare not! Haaa!) :o)
(Thanks for asking this question, Jake. It’s such an interesting subject - although I don’t think my husband thought so when, after 14 hours at the office, he came home ready for his dinner and few glasses of wine, only to be hit with this! Unsurprisingly his response wasn’t entirely enthusiastic - although, to give him his due, he did make a token effort. Wouldn’t dare not! Haaa!) :o)
This is too wide a question and really weeks of discussion. I posted on Lonnie's first, only to find the post did not register so having had a cup of hot chocolate and although tired and somewhat now frustrated, I shall briefly hit upon this from what I believe the Soul means to me, all courtesy of Lonnie, as I wasn't going to post. (smiling)
Generally though the discussion of Soul goes way back. If you are interested try reading 'Sophie's Choice' - don't know author but that sums up philosophical thought from the Ancients to present. For example they separated Soul from Spirit and associated the Soul with life as when one dies, so does the Spirit. Then came the connection of Soul and moral character - this is interestingly picked up by Oscar Wilde in 'Dorian Gray'. The book is really good, if you not read it. Then, there is association with after-life and the concept of immortality and metaphysical transcendence. I don't know if all this is in 'Sophie's Choice' as I only read a half of the book.
Generally though pretty much all philosophy will state a trinity of body, mind and spirit. Whether it is Kierkegaard who states that life's 3 distinct stages are aesthetic, ethical and religious. Meaning - aesthetic as pursuit of pleasure and materialistic experiences. Ethical - duties to society, relationships etc. Religious - to understand the true self. Summing up it is pleasure, society and spirtuality or body, mind and spirit.
Generally though the discussion of Soul goes way back. If you are interested try reading 'Sophie's Choice' - don't know author but that sums up philosophical thought from the Ancients to present. For example they separated Soul from Spirit and associated the Soul with life as when one dies, so does the Spirit. Then came the connection of Soul and moral character - this is interestingly picked up by Oscar Wilde in 'Dorian Gray'. The book is really good, if you not read it. Then, there is association with after-life and the concept of immortality and metaphysical transcendence. I don't know if all this is in 'Sophie's Choice' as I only read a half of the book.
Generally though pretty much all philosophy will state a trinity of body, mind and spirit. Whether it is Kierkegaard who states that life's 3 distinct stages are aesthetic, ethical and religious. Meaning - aesthetic as pursuit of pleasure and materialistic experiences. Ethical - duties to society, relationships etc. Religious - to understand the true self. Summing up it is pleasure, society and spirtuality or body, mind and spirit.
cont.....There is an interesting book by Oliver Sachs called 'The man who mistook his wife for a hat'. Don't know if you read it but Sachs is a neurologist who discusses cases of accident victims/brain damage and how there personality has changed since the accidents.
From the trinity, the Soul then is separate to the body and mind. Spritualism means two things: 1) a communication with the dead through a medium 2) attaining an awareness of God without any obstacles between the body/mind and what is considered the true 'Reality' - the metaphysical plane. Since the mind is considered by some as the 'ego', the body desires and that of the 'ego' are placed together and the Soul is seen as selfless and in relation to the universe - basically everything the body and mind are not. The Soul's beyond that temptation. This is a brief outline of philosophy by the way and someone may have a different interpretation - so keep that in mind.
In this respect, eastern philosophy seeks to liberate the soul from all material and earthly attachments as they are distractions and life is considered an illusion. And to attain a spiritual understanding one has to look beyond the self and then an inner happiness, an awareness that life is good for that reason only
Doesn't really answer your question does it? But I hope you understand how difficult yours and Lonnie's questions are and this whole area of discussion for that matter! My personal attempt at some of your questions is continued....unless you don't want to read on.
From the trinity, the Soul then is separate to the body and mind. Spritualism means two things: 1) a communication with the dead through a medium 2) attaining an awareness of God without any obstacles between the body/mind and what is considered the true 'Reality' - the metaphysical plane. Since the mind is considered by some as the 'ego', the body desires and that of the 'ego' are placed together and the Soul is seen as selfless and in relation to the universe - basically everything the body and mind are not. The Soul's beyond that temptation. This is a brief outline of philosophy by the way and someone may have a different interpretation - so keep that in mind.
In this respect, eastern philosophy seeks to liberate the soul from all material and earthly attachments as they are distractions and life is considered an illusion. And to attain a spiritual understanding one has to look beyond the self and then an inner happiness, an awareness that life is good for that reason only
Doesn't really answer your question does it? But I hope you understand how difficult yours and Lonnie's questions are and this whole area of discussion for that matter! My personal attempt at some of your questions is continued....unless you don't want to read on.
Ok, my belief is simple and suits me at this point, it may change later. I've always believed in a God because my mum and dad do and I've been indoctrinated in that sense. The thought of 'no God' is frankly scary to me, although I confess I do think of life as it is and death as a nothingness - the end of my inner voice. So fearing death and being somewhat of a romantic, I choose to believe, not in religion which is a man-made construct, a tool of separation/segregation and a fueller of war, crime and terror. But in an ominipotent, omnipresent God who I view as a mist unseen by the naked eye and the 'Soul' is derived? or part of? that mist, but resides in all of us.
Some call the 'Soul', angels? To me, the cosmic Soul is a guide to our human free will. It consists of energy. I believe in fate to an extent. The decisions we make, we freely make and if they are wrong or not good for us and we ask for help, we should ask out aloud to the cosmic universe and the Soul will try and guide us or show us a door or something. In that respect, I don't believe that events are unconnected as some Philosohers do. Intuition, I believe is our Soul communicating with us. Which is why sometimes when you meet someone for the first time, you feel wary of them - it's the Soul giving you a warning that this person is not good for you.
Some call the 'Soul', angels? To me, the cosmic Soul is a guide to our human free will. It consists of energy. I believe in fate to an extent. The decisions we make, we freely make and if they are wrong or not good for us and we ask for help, we should ask out aloud to the cosmic universe and the Soul will try and guide us or show us a door or something. In that respect, I don't believe that events are unconnected as some Philosohers do. Intuition, I believe is our Soul communicating with us. Which is why sometimes when you meet someone for the first time, you feel wary of them - it's the Soul giving you a warning that this person is not good for you.
(laughing) This is going on and on and on.......I really wish Lonnie hadn't said 'it's a pity that no-one who believes in this came on.' That's what did it! I'm such a sucker. And it probably is all cr@p to you.
To answer the negative aspects of humans, the 'soulless people', I don't know. Spirituality is about good things. I do believe in hell and heaven, but on earth as in people. Humans can be bad/evil, in which case their thought patterns or body/mind are totally disconnected from their Soul, not to say the Soul is not there. It is present in everyone but not everyone 'reads' it. Or they just screwed up as humans, the Soul is quiet?
Lonnie, since I believe in the Soul, I therefore believe that that boy is telling the truth unless physical evidence proves otherwise, which can be the case. Some people are mistaken as in a documentary I saw once about a woman under hypnosis who spoke of being a child in Prague - gave specific details, dates etc and no evidence of her existence could be found. But there was another one of an Indian boy with a shot wound mark close to his ear who said, in his previous life he remembered being shot in that same place and he pointed out his previous life, home and wife who was still living. Maybe this is the truth for their Souls but not for all?
However it is a huge compliment for any parent to hear their child tell him that they chose them whilst a Spirit.
To answer the negative aspects of humans, the 'soulless people', I don't know. Spirituality is about good things. I do believe in hell and heaven, but on earth as in people. Humans can be bad/evil, in which case their thought patterns or body/mind are totally disconnected from their Soul, not to say the Soul is not there. It is present in everyone but not everyone 'reads' it. Or they just screwed up as humans, the Soul is quiet?
Lonnie, since I believe in the Soul, I therefore believe that that boy is telling the truth unless physical evidence proves otherwise, which can be the case. Some people are mistaken as in a documentary I saw once about a woman under hypnosis who spoke of being a child in Prague - gave specific details, dates etc and no evidence of her existence could be found. But there was another one of an Indian boy with a shot wound mark close to his ear who said, in his previous life he remembered being shot in that same place and he pointed out his previous life, home and wife who was still living. Maybe this is the truth for their Souls but not for all?
However it is a huge compliment for any parent to hear their child tell him that they chose them whilst a Spirit.
Quick correction..... last sentence supposed to read ..'to hear their child tell them that they...'
And quick post script - Personality is a combination of body and mind and the most complex, loads of schools of thought on this. Hope this stuff has been helpful but the other posters shed light on it more clearly.
And quick post script - Personality is a combination of body and mind and the most complex, loads of schools of thought on this. Hope this stuff has been helpful but the other posters shed light on it more clearly.
i am struggling to read the above because all the sentences go off the page. really annoying.
the idea, or belief, that we are all really spiritual beings having a human experience, floating from one body (or realm) to another, doesn’t relly do it for me. i think its just a life start and a life end, and that’s it. of course it’s a nice comforting thought that there is something else beyond this human experience, but in my view it is just that. prudentia, would be interesting to understand how you ‘know’ so that i can indeed one day ‘rest assured’.
the idea, or belief, that we are all really spiritual beings having a human experience, floating from one body (or realm) to another, doesn’t relly do it for me. i think its just a life start and a life end, and that’s it. of course it’s a nice comforting thought that there is something else beyond this human experience, but in my view it is just that. prudentia, would be interesting to understand how you ‘know’ so that i can indeed one day ‘rest assured’.
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