ChatterBank1 min ago
Moderate Muslims
186 Answers
Are the 'moderate' muslims in the UK aware that they will be crushed and treated as apostates if their dream of an islamic UK state were ever to become a reality?
In my opinion, islam is very much like communism. The standard bearers of both like to espouse the virtues of their particular political / religious ideology, knowing full well that many people will be slaughtered as a result. The ones doing the espousing always justify their belief by convincing themselves that they will be the ones who make up the ruling elite of such an ideology. It never seems to occur to these zealots and bigots that they will be eaten by their own.
Do the westernised, moderate muslims truly think that they will be spared the wrath of political islam?
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Was the Muslim faith ever moderate?
The history of Islam begins in the year 623 AD, , when Mohammed, in order to escape persecution, migrated from Mecca to Medina and was welcomed by the Jews and Christians there.
Do you know what happened to the Jews of Medina in the following years? Do you know what happened to the religiously tolerant Meccans less than ten years later when Mohammed returned to his former home?
The history of Islam begins in the year 623 AD, , when Mohammed, in order to escape persecution, migrated from Mecca to Medina and was welcomed by the Jews and Christians there.
Do you know what happened to the Jews of Medina in the following years? Do you know what happened to the religiously tolerant Meccans less than ten years later when Mohammed returned to his former home?
///Your idea of unsavoury isn't Keyplus' idea of unsavoury. ;o)///
It’s not usual that I would agree with Naomi, but in this instance I do. Although the mentality behind this is different from what is in Naomi’s mind. Wildwood, yes it is true that what is unsavoury in your mind might not be unsavoury in my mind. And the reason is very simple that you are just an individual and if I were to change my mind to match it up with every single individual then it is by all means impossible. So why don’t you tell me that why do you believe that homosexual acts are so important for you that for this very reason you would like someone to leave their religion? Could it be,
1 – That you are homosexual yourself?
2 – That you have had bad experience from Islam (Muslims obviously), and the other religion in this regard.
3 – That you believe it is very normal natural way of life?
4 – Or any other reason.
Let’s hear your side of the story.
Finally, Togo, what does your knowledge about Islamic history tells you that what happened to those Jews or others? Let’s hear your story too.
It’s not usual that I would agree with Naomi, but in this instance I do. Although the mentality behind this is different from what is in Naomi’s mind. Wildwood, yes it is true that what is unsavoury in your mind might not be unsavoury in my mind. And the reason is very simple that you are just an individual and if I were to change my mind to match it up with every single individual then it is by all means impossible. So why don’t you tell me that why do you believe that homosexual acts are so important for you that for this very reason you would like someone to leave their religion? Could it be,
1 – That you are homosexual yourself?
2 – That you have had bad experience from Islam (Muslims obviously), and the other religion in this regard.
3 – That you believe it is very normal natural way of life?
4 – Or any other reason.
Let’s hear your side of the story.
Finally, Togo, what does your knowledge about Islamic history tells you that what happened to those Jews or others? Let’s hear your story too.
I think Medina illustrates diversity and outreach Islamic style better than Mecca, Togo.
It took Mohammed fewer than three years (I think) after he had been invited into Medina as an immigrant, and had acquired enough converts and wealth (by brigandage) to attack two of the Jewish tribes of Medina, expel them from the city and expropriate their homes. Not long after that he got rid of the third Jewish tribe, killing all the adult men and enslaving the women and children.
It took Mohammed fewer than three years (I think) after he had been invited into Medina as an immigrant, and had acquired enough converts and wealth (by brigandage) to attack two of the Jewish tribes of Medina, expel them from the city and expropriate their homes. Not long after that he got rid of the third Jewish tribe, killing all the adult men and enslaving the women and children.
////You ask why I work so hard trying to convince people. I don’t.////
Naomi, that is joke of the century for me. But still you had "words" to say that only people prepared to see evidence would react and I am not prepared. Believe me (I know you would not) you do make me laugh sometimes. As for “Free Will” then I am not talking about mine or your free will, I was talking as a human and it is evident that you do have free will otherwise you would not be an atheist. Now, wheather I am right or you are then only way to find out is when we all be dead. And as I said before that I am quite prepared to be wronged but are you?
Togo – First of all perhaps you have no idea who Adam, Abraham, Jesus and Moses were and what was their message. Then I am really not sure that why can’t you take that those people might have converted willfully and the evidence is that there are still Coptic Christians and orthodox Jews in the Middle East in the Muslim countries who have lived there for generations.
As for Vetustee, He (or She) knows only one side of history as I said earlier and is not willing to study reasons why people from that particular Jew tribe were killed and more importantly on who’s order. But I would leave it and would not explain as it would not change anything.
Naomi, that is joke of the century for me. But still you had "words" to say that only people prepared to see evidence would react and I am not prepared. Believe me (I know you would not) you do make me laugh sometimes. As for “Free Will” then I am not talking about mine or your free will, I was talking as a human and it is evident that you do have free will otherwise you would not be an atheist. Now, wheather I am right or you are then only way to find out is when we all be dead. And as I said before that I am quite prepared to be wronged but are you?
Togo – First of all perhaps you have no idea who Adam, Abraham, Jesus and Moses were and what was their message. Then I am really not sure that why can’t you take that those people might have converted willfully and the evidence is that there are still Coptic Christians and orthodox Jews in the Middle East in the Muslim countries who have lived there for generations.
As for Vetustee, He (or She) knows only one side of history as I said earlier and is not willing to study reasons why people from that particular Jew tribe were killed and more importantly on who’s order. But I would leave it and would not explain as it would not change anything.
Then, of course, Togo, we've got the theme Islam and Free Speech (sub-titled: "Dead Poets' Society").
Here's one of my favourite stories from an early biography of Mohammed:
"Asma was a poetess who belonged to a tribe of Medinan pagans[who] composed a poem blaming the Medinan pagans for obeying a stranger (Muhammad) and for not taking the initiative to attack him by surprise. When the ...prophet heard what she had said, he asked, "Who will rid me of Marwan’s daughter?" A member of her husband’s tribe volunteered and crept into her house that night. She had five children, and the youngest was sleeping at her breast. The assassin gently removed the child, drew his sword, and plunged it into her, killing her in her sleep."
Removing the child was a nice touch, wasn't it, presumably "in the name of Allah the most compassionate the most merciful".
Here's one of my favourite stories from an early biography of Mohammed:
"Asma was a poetess who belonged to a tribe of Medinan pagans[who] composed a poem blaming the Medinan pagans for obeying a stranger (Muhammad) and for not taking the initiative to attack him by surprise. When the ...prophet heard what she had said, he asked, "Who will rid me of Marwan’s daughter?" A member of her husband’s tribe volunteered and crept into her house that night. She had five children, and the youngest was sleeping at her breast. The assassin gently removed the child, drew his sword, and plunged it into her, killing her in her sleep."
Removing the child was a nice touch, wasn't it, presumably "in the name of Allah the most compassionate the most merciful".
Keyplus: again, I salute you, and your persistence in the face of unreason.
Me? White, English, atheist, Marxist - but I'll fight to defend any unreasoned slur against any religion (or gender!).
Of course any intelligent adult condemns the lunatic extremists of Christianity, past and present, similarly the Hindu mobs who attack Moslems in India, also the Buddhists (almost unbelievably) who either attack others in Myanmar or Sri Lanka, and so on, and of course Da'esh and other extreme Moslems who commit outrages in the name of Allah.
All religions, and most political groups, have done some positive service for humanity, and that too must be recognised alongside the criticisms.
Balance and moderation could be a slogan for this place... one day.
BillB
Me? White, English, atheist, Marxist - but I'll fight to defend any unreasoned slur against any religion (or gender!).
Of course any intelligent adult condemns the lunatic extremists of Christianity, past and present, similarly the Hindu mobs who attack Moslems in India, also the Buddhists (almost unbelievably) who either attack others in Myanmar or Sri Lanka, and so on, and of course Da'esh and other extreme Moslems who commit outrages in the name of Allah.
All religions, and most political groups, have done some positive service for humanity, and that too must be recognised alongside the criticisms.
Balance and moderation could be a slogan for this place... one day.
BillB
// I'll fight to defend any unreasoned slur against any religion (or gender!).//
Then perhaps you will tell us what "slurs" you've seen on this thread and explain why they are "unreasoned", Bainbrig.
All of my posts have explained the violent origins of Islam and how they are based on the violence and intolerance of its founder.
So far your "defence" has amounted to nothing more than commiseration with Keyplus. I'd be delighted to hear something more logically substantial from you, especially given the obvious anagram of your monicker.
Then perhaps you will tell us what "slurs" you've seen on this thread and explain why they are "unreasoned", Bainbrig.
All of my posts have explained the violent origins of Islam and how they are based on the violence and intolerance of its founder.
So far your "defence" has amounted to nothing more than commiseration with Keyplus. I'd be delighted to hear something more logically substantial from you, especially given the obvious anagram of your monicker.
bainbrig; A self confessed Marxist eh? Well there's plenty of room for extremism amidst your cohort. Oddly I was reading only half an hour ago, something I didn't know, how at the time of the Brighton IRA bombing and Jeremy Corbyn (no doubt a hero of yours?) was on the editorial board of a socialist newspaper when it mocked Norman Tebbit who had to be dug out of the rubble, saying "Try riding you bike now Norman".
What fun!
What fun!
"it is evident that you do have free will otherwise you would not be an atheist"
Being an atheist is no evidence of free will. One might have no choice but to be an atheist. Free will is always poorly defined as far as I've seen. Vague descriptions with little real explanation. I suspect it doesn't exist, merely the illusion of it. A necessary illusion as society won't survive unless the concept of personal responsibility exists.
Being an atheist is no evidence of free will. One might have no choice but to be an atheist. Free will is always poorly defined as far as I've seen. Vague descriptions with little real explanation. I suspect it doesn't exist, merely the illusion of it. A necessary illusion as society won't survive unless the concept of personal responsibility exists.
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