Crosswords1 min ago
Another Step Close To Sharia
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The Law Society has written guidelines for solicitors on how to draw up Sharia compliant wills.
http://
"Nicholas Fluck, president of The Law Society, said the guidance would promote “good practice” in applying Islamic principles in the British legal system. "
Should we be incorporating any religious principles into our legal system given that most religions and especially Islam include elements of unfairness to some sections of society or other?
http://
"Nicholas Fluck, president of The Law Society, said the guidance would promote “good practice” in applying Islamic principles in the British legal system. "
Should we be incorporating any religious principles into our legal system given that most religions and especially Islam include elements of unfairness to some sections of society or other?
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//"Nicholas Fluck, president of The Law Society, said the guidance would promote “good practice” in applying Islamic principles in the British legal system. " //
// I wonder what that means exactly? //
Hopefully it means they won't be applying any Islamic priciples in the British legal system. That'd be good practice.
// I wonder what that means exactly? //
Hopefully it means they won't be applying any Islamic priciples in the British legal system. That'd be good practice.
jomifl
"If their marriages aren't legally recognised then the beneficiaries would have to pay income tax."
not necessarily
http://
ludwig, if british and sharia requirements say the same thing, then there is no issue. Sharia is not the law of the UK and where it doesn't "agree" with UK law then it is unenforceable under UK law.
Its also worth pointing out that in the Uk, it is my understanding (Barmaid?) there isn't much law surrounding what someone can or cannot choose to when deciding how to distribute their estate by means of a will. Wills can be contested, yes, but when a person write a will, they can say what they like in it, and provided that the will is properly witnessed, it will stand as a legal will.
Its also worth pointing out that in the Uk, it is my understanding (Barmaid?) there isn't much law surrounding what someone can or cannot choose to when deciding how to distribute their estate by means of a will. Wills can be contested, yes, but when a person write a will, they can say what they like in it, and provided that the will is properly witnessed, it will stand as a legal will.
again, Naomi, not quite true. if they can prove dependency, then they have the same claim as any other unmarried/un civil partnershipped person. if they are a dependent patent of the deceased's dependent non sdult children, then the claim is stronger. what they dint't have is the automatic right of a legally recognised spuse or civil partner.
It‘s quite nice in Royal Tunbridge Wells.
“Solicitors educating themselves in the requirements of sharia compliant wills does not alter the law of this country any more than solicitors educating themselves in the requirements of wills where overseas property is involved. teacup. Storm.”
“This is just lawyers trying to acquire another income stream.”
It is not quite as simple as that and I think the point is being somewhat missed here. Nobody is suggesting that in following this guideline solicitors are attempting to circumvent UK law. It is quite true that people in the UK can leave their estate to whomsoever they choose. Further, the laws of intestacy will deal with those dieing without leaving a will and can usually deal with the matter of illegitimate issue or multiple marriages. However I have just read a very interesting article by Sadikur Rahman. Mr Rahman is a solicitor and a member of the Lawyers’ Secular Law Society. He makes some very good points which I will précis.
Solicitors have an obligation under their code of conduct to advise their clients in accordance with the Equality Act 2010. In particular, it says:
“As a matter of general law you must comply with requirements set out in legislation -
including the 2010 Equality Act - as well as the conduct duties contained in this chapter”
This makes it clear that solicitors cannot discriminate in a manner contrary to the 2010 Act. Whilst I accept that people making wills have the freedom to act as they wish, their solicitors do not. This guidance encourages their advisors to discriminate by advising Muslims to draft their wills in a different way not compatible with the Act.
Furthermore, although it will be dismissed as outrageous nonsense, it is but a short step from there for lobbying to take place to encourage Parliament to alter the rules of intestacy to accommodate Sharia principles. “After all,” will go the cry, “We make our wills this way so it is only fair that our wishes are upheld if we happen to die before making a will”. In fact, they might argue (perversely in my view) that they are being discriminated against by not having their religious principles supported by the State. And if you think this is truly outrageous the Supreme Court in Greece upheld precisely that argument in a recent decision.
The guidance issued to solicitors encourages Muslims to believe (as if they were not aware) that normal rules do not apply to them. This guidance makes it far simpler for successful lobbying to a change in the intestacy law to be sought. Many Islamic principles (particularly the treatment of women and non-Muslims) are completely at odds with British values and are certainly incompatible with the 2010 Equality Act. The very last description of their application to the British legal system would be "good practice" as described by Mr Fluck. If this guidance leads to a call for the laws of intestacy to be changed to accord with Sharia principles you might as well chuck the 2010 Equality Act on the bonfire.
“Solicitors educating themselves in the requirements of sharia compliant wills does not alter the law of this country any more than solicitors educating themselves in the requirements of wills where overseas property is involved. teacup. Storm.”
“This is just lawyers trying to acquire another income stream.”
It is not quite as simple as that and I think the point is being somewhat missed here. Nobody is suggesting that in following this guideline solicitors are attempting to circumvent UK law. It is quite true that people in the UK can leave their estate to whomsoever they choose. Further, the laws of intestacy will deal with those dieing without leaving a will and can usually deal with the matter of illegitimate issue or multiple marriages. However I have just read a very interesting article by Sadikur Rahman. Mr Rahman is a solicitor and a member of the Lawyers’ Secular Law Society. He makes some very good points which I will précis.
Solicitors have an obligation under their code of conduct to advise their clients in accordance with the Equality Act 2010. In particular, it says:
“As a matter of general law you must comply with requirements set out in legislation -
including the 2010 Equality Act - as well as the conduct duties contained in this chapter”
This makes it clear that solicitors cannot discriminate in a manner contrary to the 2010 Act. Whilst I accept that people making wills have the freedom to act as they wish, their solicitors do not. This guidance encourages their advisors to discriminate by advising Muslims to draft their wills in a different way not compatible with the Act.
Furthermore, although it will be dismissed as outrageous nonsense, it is but a short step from there for lobbying to take place to encourage Parliament to alter the rules of intestacy to accommodate Sharia principles. “After all,” will go the cry, “We make our wills this way so it is only fair that our wishes are upheld if we happen to die before making a will”. In fact, they might argue (perversely in my view) that they are being discriminated against by not having their religious principles supported by the State. And if you think this is truly outrageous the Supreme Court in Greece upheld precisely that argument in a recent decision.
The guidance issued to solicitors encourages Muslims to believe (as if they were not aware) that normal rules do not apply to them. This guidance makes it far simpler for successful lobbying to a change in the intestacy law to be sought. Many Islamic principles (particularly the treatment of women and non-Muslims) are completely at odds with British values and are certainly incompatible with the 2010 Equality Act. The very last description of their application to the British legal system would be "good practice" as described by Mr Fluck. If this guidance leads to a call for the laws of intestacy to be changed to accord with Sharia principles you might as well chuck the 2010 Equality Act on the bonfire.
Blimey the level of comment is not that high
one can write a will that is valid at ENglish Law and also complies with the principles of sharia, and this guideline tells the lawyers how to do it.
and if there is conflict English Law takes precedence - 1686 James II declared that the penal laws against Catholics would bot be enforced - that was the indulgence in the Declaration of Indulgence and was roundly told that he couldnt pick and choose....
it is the same not surprisingly now
one can write a will that is valid at ENglish Law and also complies with the principles of sharia, and this guideline tells the lawyers how to do it.
and if there is conflict English Law takes precedence - 1686 James II declared that the penal laws against Catholics would bot be enforced - that was the indulgence in the Declaration of Indulgence and was roundly told that he couldnt pick and choose....
it is the same not surprisingly now
I am still not sure I fully understand the worry that somehow Sharia Law is supplanting or replacing English Law.
Hypothetical example. I die leaving a will dividing up my estate to my 2 kids, Peter and Mary, and my wish is that Peter receive 2x as much as Mary.
Is that breaking the 2010 equality law?
This is the concern raised in the National Secular Society piece - that a Muslim could instruct his solicitor to arrange his estate in the manner described as above, but he is doing it because of faith reasons.
Would his instructions under those conditions be contravening the 2010 Equality Law?
I remain quite puzzled ;).....
Hypothetical example. I die leaving a will dividing up my estate to my 2 kids, Peter and Mary, and my wish is that Peter receive 2x as much as Mary.
Is that breaking the 2010 equality law?
This is the concern raised in the National Secular Society piece - that a Muslim could instruct his solicitor to arrange his estate in the manner described as above, but he is doing it because of faith reasons.
Would his instructions under those conditions be contravening the 2010 Equality Law?
I remain quite puzzled ;).....
Your puzzlement is understandable, LG.
The issue is that of solicitors' advice. Further, the manner in which Muslims see fit to distribute their estate contravenes the spirit of certain sections of the Wills Act 1837. For example, unless specifically stated by the testator, if a person who is a beneficiary under a will dies before the testator, under S37 of the Act the bequest automatically passes to the descendent(s) of the original beneficiary. This, apparently, is not permitted under Sharia Law and solicitors are being advised to delete or amend some standard will clauses. Once again it is, of course, entirely up to the will maker to decide how his estate is distributed. But the difference now is that solicitors are being given guidance that are clearly in contravention of the general rules regarding wills. Furthermore, the UK has taken great strides to ensure, as far as possible, discrimination does not take place and we have laws to prevent it. Yet here we have a large and significant group of people who discriminate against women in many respects and in the matter of inheritance they are now to be given advice which is clearly contrary to the spirit of UK law and indeed to UK values.
However, it is not that which worries me so much. More important to me is that if such practices receive tacit acceptance by incorporating such advice into solicitors’ guidelines, as I said earlier, it will be a short step to having those practices incorporated into intestacy law.
If any other large group were to discriminate against women and “non-believers” in the manner in which Muslims do there would be shouting from the rooftops. But here we have guidance issued to lawyers which encourage that discrimination to prevail. I too am puzzled because I don’t understand the discrepancy. There is no place in the UK for Muslim attitudes towards women and whilst it won’t be eradicated it should not be officially encouraged.
The issue is that of solicitors' advice. Further, the manner in which Muslims see fit to distribute their estate contravenes the spirit of certain sections of the Wills Act 1837. For example, unless specifically stated by the testator, if a person who is a beneficiary under a will dies before the testator, under S37 of the Act the bequest automatically passes to the descendent(s) of the original beneficiary. This, apparently, is not permitted under Sharia Law and solicitors are being advised to delete or amend some standard will clauses. Once again it is, of course, entirely up to the will maker to decide how his estate is distributed. But the difference now is that solicitors are being given guidance that are clearly in contravention of the general rules regarding wills. Furthermore, the UK has taken great strides to ensure, as far as possible, discrimination does not take place and we have laws to prevent it. Yet here we have a large and significant group of people who discriminate against women in many respects and in the matter of inheritance they are now to be given advice which is clearly contrary to the spirit of UK law and indeed to UK values.
However, it is not that which worries me so much. More important to me is that if such practices receive tacit acceptance by incorporating such advice into solicitors’ guidelines, as I said earlier, it will be a short step to having those practices incorporated into intestacy law.
If any other large group were to discriminate against women and “non-believers” in the manner in which Muslims do there would be shouting from the rooftops. But here we have guidance issued to lawyers which encourage that discrimination to prevail. I too am puzzled because I don’t understand the discrepancy. There is no place in the UK for Muslim attitudes towards women and whilst it won’t be eradicated it should not be officially encouraged.
i have read through this thread and still not quite au fait with the idea of lawyers being instructed on guidance or good practice in applying Islamic Principles into our system, surely what is good for one, should be good enough for all, please let us not bend this way and that to accommodate others legalise, if the parties are married in Sharia Law, then surely they have no marriage in British law, or the law that pertains to most of us
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