Couple Consider Legal Challenge To Church’S Gay Marriage Opt-Out

naomi24 | 07:35 Sat 03rd Aug 2013 | Religion & Spirituality

45 Answers

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10219802/First-couple-consider-legal-challenge-to-Churchs-gay-marriage-opt-out.html

As far as I can see, since the bible specifically forbids same sex relationships, the church and the state are facing a huge dilemma. If this couple succeed in their challenge, what impact will it have on the church?

Your thoughts?

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Sharingan

But people including the Church itself are always discarding passages they don't like in the Bible, no-one expects the vicar to go to hell over the choice of cloth he wears for example so why should homosexuality be any different- they'll just ignore the bits that affect them if they are ruled against rather than lose their power base.

jim360

That's just a bit of preaching to the converted, I think. I'm always going to be a bit more guarded in my language when it comes to religious matters, because it's been established before that I know less about them than I thought. That aside, in this case I agree with you completely. I just don't put it in the same way.

naomi24

Question Author

The churches ignore passages from the bible - but they don't discard them. This is something that cannot be ignored. The union of man with woman is a fundamental principle of all three Abrahamic religions.

Sharingan

I disagree, they'll be left with two choices- implode or ignore it, and they'll ignore it, like they do everything else that threatenes their popularity and power. Besides someone will come up with the excuse that there HAVE been revisions to the bible in the past and so it's all in God's plan that we question his word therefore it's okay to be utterly two faced and do whatever they hell they like in order to keep their control of things. There will be a huge hoo-haa about it but they have no other choice. It's certainly not the end of the Church of England etc etc etc, in fact aside from being quite interesting it's just the church being forced to evolve.

Svejk

'Forced to evolve' Interesting phrase.

naomi24

Question Author

I don't think anyone suggested it would be the end of the Church of England (not to mention the RC church, or the Greek/Russian Orthodox for that matter) - but the state overruling ‘God’ is an interesting prospect – at least I think so. It reminds me somewhat of the Scopes Trial, except this is more likely to have a much bigger impact simply because a finding against the church in this instance would, in effect, amount to a finding against the law of ‘God’.

naomi24

Question Author

I should perhaps add that the Scopes Trial did not involve the ‘law’ of God – this does.

Sharingan

But that's already been done, you can't rape your wife or beat her, and you can't kill witches or stone people to death. It is a very interesting thing but I think God has been legislated against dozens if not hundreds of times already.

naomi24

Question Author

Sharingan, You're missing the point entirely. This isn't about killing people for picking up sticks on the sabbath. The union of one man with one woman, primarily for the procreation of children, is a fundamental principle of the church.

whiskeryron

Hear hear naomi24

WR.

Sharingan

Naomi, I am not 'missing' anything entirely. I have an opinion which differs to yours. It's quite a simple concept- not everyone agrees with you, it doesn't make them stupid, wrong or 'missing' something, they just have a different opinion to you. You think this is a huge deal, I think it's more of what has already been happening for generaitons. It's a simple difference of opinion. Anyway I'll get off your thread and leave you to it.
Have a nice day, the sun's shining.

naomi24

Question Author

Thanks Ron. I'm pleased someone understands what this really means.

pixie373

I don't think sharingan is missing the point. The Church chooses the parts it wants and discards the others anyway. Going by the biblical quote about two men. Is it ok for two women to marry?
If religion is above the Law, honour killings could be justified, when the Law sees it as murder. Individual beliefs do not overrule the law.

jim360

One could argue that a fundamental principle of the Church should be doing as God tells them. In that respect same-sex relationships are no different from respecting the sabbath. This is, ultimately, far bigger than just this one issue.

naomi24

Question Author

Sharingan, I haven’t said anyone is stupid, and that petulant reaction simply because I don’t agree with you, is unnecessary.

Pixie, This is not simply one of the many laws the bible contains – it is accepted as a fundamental principle of the church – and as such it is immutable - and therein lies the difference.

DrFilth

will this mean i can have chicken madras on a friday instead of fish for tea

keyplus90

My thought? my thought are that Church should stick to what they believe in when it clearly states what is right and what is wrong in their own book.

But I have my doubts as pope's recent statement shows that they would do anything to keep their shop open and the funds coming in.

naomi24

Question Author

Keyplus, the pope hasn’t condoned gay marriage. He reaffirmed the Roman Catholic Church's position by saying that:

//homosexual acts were sinful, but homosexual orientation was not….. and added “If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge?"//

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23489702

LazyGun

I think they are on shaky ground, legally speaking. At the time of giving the quadruple lock guarantee, Mr. Cameron had already been advised that it could be overturned in Court, so the suspicion must be that the assurance was given as a sop to the religious/right wing section of the tory party and the population as a whole.

It is my recollection from an admittedly imperfect memory that actually several parish CoE churches would have been quite happy to go ahead and offer marriage ceremonies to gay couples.

That marriage is a union between a man and a woman for the purposes of procreation is a fundamental precept of Christianity and hence the CoE and RC churches is well understood.

If my understanding is correct, and there are parishes, vicars, bishops etc within the CoE willing to offer services for gay marriages, they must have arrived at some accomodation in their own minds between their own interpretation of their religion and what the bible actually says, otherwise their heads would likely explode from the cognitive dissonance :)

So a further split in the CoE, with some moving in the Unitarian direction, the rest travelling to RC?

Of course if the CoE was to be disestablished as the state religion, then it would be quite easy for them to refuse. It is because they are the state religion that a legal challenge will likely succeed.

I would quite like to see a disestablished CoE, and for the UK to become a properly secular state - no state religion, no 26 bishops in the Lords, etc...