What would make you lose your faith – or what caused you to lose it?

[naomi24]

Does anyone watch Four Thought TV? I watch it when I’m cooking dinner. It’s a five minute slot at the end of the 7pm Channel 4 news, described by the programme makers as a “series of highly personal short films, broadcast daily, reflecting on a broad range of religious and ethical issues, and aspects of our spiritual lives. These films challenge some traditional views, providing a platform for both scepticism and devout religious beliefs.”

This week’s topic is ‘Reasons for losing your faith.’ Last night a Science teacher, a former Muslim, said when he was at school, he could never accept that the non-Muslim children were going to hell, but the defining moment came for him when he ate bacon for the first time and realised that he was responsible for leading his own life.

Tonight we had a Roman Catholic who, during his childhood, had held great affection for a particular priest, and had held him in very high regard, only to discover years later that the priest had been a paedophile.

So, what would make you lose your faith – or what caused you to lose it?

[naomi24]

If anyone's interested, tonight's couple of minutes was from a former Christian, a survivor of the 7/7 London bombings.

http://www.channel4.c...thoughttv/4od#3308866

[birdie1971]

Keyplus -

You do love to claim that those who leave Islam do not understand it. You've made this claim before. This is what you are claiming of Alom Shaha. However, he seems to understand Islam perfectly well. Here's what he says about it [I've transcribed the quote taken from approximately 45 seconds in], “... I was told that those children would burn in hell when they died because they weren't muslims...”.

He was told this because that is what is widely taught in Islam. Thankfully, he saw through the lies, the manipulation and the irrationality and discovered that a disbelief in god isn't quite so scary as he was lead to believe.

He finishes with this rather poignant statement, “... One of the joyous things about leaving behind God, leaving behind religion, is that you're free to explore meaning and purpose for yourself...”

How very true.

[Davethedog]

naomi shes not "former" shes still - she says so.

[naomi24]

Dave, just watched it again. You're right - she is still a Christian. Sorry, my mistake.

[Davethedog]

We all make errors except Keyplus - which is the only reason I pointed it out, rather me wouldn't you? :-)

[ummmm]

//So, what would make you lose your faith – or what caused you to lose it? //

You did ;0)

[naomi24]

Dave, Ha ha! I must have been thinking of the title of the series when I wrote that.

Actually, I really like this little programme. Maybe I should do a kind of 'Thought for the Day', and post a link to it regularly. It's only ever a couple of minutes watching - and it certainly gives some food for thought.

Ummmm, I make no apology for that. ;o)

[RATTER15]

Well said Ummmm, Im assuming that Naomis words were a good thing to happen to you. I know Naomi has never set out to convert anybody but I have also learned a lot from Naomi and her writings have totally convinced that their is almost certainly no God and if there is one he has a lot to answer for!

Naomi has even challenged my views on spirits and ghosts, I am far more likely to believe that these entities could somehow exist, im just battling common sense on this one at the moment, who knows. :))

[RATTER15]

*convinced me that there

[ummmm]

It was just reading her posts on here. I was gutted when she left for a while. People think I hang out in CB, I don't, I read most of what is posted in R&S. They are the threads I subscribe to :-)

[Davethedog]

I actualy work (sort of) with a chap who lost a leg on 7/7 never discussed faith with him, but I, so admire his fortitude.

As much as I cannot believe, I can but admire that lady.

[naomi24]

Ummmm and Ratter, thank you. (Blush).

[mibn2cweus]

//...what makes me question if there is a god or not is when i read about pedophile priests and ministers and people in power and people in general abusing and killing children.

If there really was a god how could god let this happen. ??????//

Have they ever stopped to consider the possibility that this kind of deviant behaviour is attributable in no small part to the corruption of mind that is a consequence of their faith and belief in God . . . would they dare?

[vetuste_ennemi]

Firstly, by the gradual realisation that the sect I belonged to was a racket. Secondly, by the observation that all other Christian sects were to a greater or lesser extent rackets, too. Thirdly, by the simple conclusion that a book (the Bible) which can produce belief systems as far apart as Roman Catholicism and the Plymouth Brethren must be very ambiguous and that if its authorship were divine then the author would have far more in common with Loki and Hermes than anything resembling the Christian description of god as all-knowing, all-loving etc.
Then I looked at its place of origin and its historical context. Christianity and its Semitic bedfellows are obsessed with obeisance, worship, prostration, obedience and the punishment of those who offend. With unintentional irony Christians call God “Our Father”. There is nothing fatherly to be seen in a deity who wants his children to grovel in front of him. The Christian God, as that of the Jews and the Muslims, is made (oh so obviously) in the image of Middle Eastern autocrats of that time and later and shares the same moral defects of those reduced beings: vengefulness, pride, caprice and cruelty.
Then I considered the central tenet of Christianity, redemption by blood sacrifice. Who apart from cruel and ignorant people who slaughter animals to propitiate their gods could not find this doctrine disgusting? Is any further argument needed?
And lastly there’s the issue of theodicy – why God allows suffering. Well, I won’t argue with the great David Hume who allowed that pain and suffering COULD be compatible with the all-loving, omnipotent god of the Christians. But the went on to say that simply by observing the world you would never infer such a being existed, would you?

[keyplus90]

Yes – I watched you link and he said children who were at school when they die. So two things, If he is talking about children (who were still children once they died) then no child will go to hell and Islamic stance on this is very clear. However once they are not children anymore then they have made their own choice as he has done and he said that by eating bacon he realised that he made his own choice and he was responsible about that. So very clearly he decided to use his free will. All I can say that first of all you never know that may Allah show him the right path again as you do have a choice to look around and make up your mind until you have had your last breath because door is always open and that is the sign of God’s mercy upon who realise that he/she was wrong. Otherwise he admits that he has made a choice and now he should be ready to stand by his made choice once time comes.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, What he actually said was he was told that ‘those children would burn in hell when they died because they weren’t Muslims’; that the idea ‘grated with his sense of childhood justice’, and that he “couldn’t accept that an all-powerful loving god would punish children simply because they hadn’t been born into Muslim families like I had” – so he is clearly speaking from his perspective as a child. It rarely occurs to children raised in societies with very low child mortality rates that anyone dies before they’re old. You really don’t understand children’s minds, do you? Perhaps that’s why you think little girls, once they have reached puberty instantly become adults, and hence marriageable – and that isn’t sarcasm – I’m serious.

//Otherwise he admits that he has made a choice and now he should be ready to stand by his made choice once time comes.//

Why wouldn’t he? He’s an intelligent man.

[keyplus90]

Again your little brain is unable to understand what I said. Or perhaps that little brain is too clever to understand anything other than what has already been accepted by you. Even if he was told (supposedly by his parents) those other children would burn to hell then it is parents fault because of two reasons. First of all those parents who say those sorts of things do not do or know what Islam believes in. A child (died as child) will never go to hell. If they meant that those children (once grown up) still Islam forbids that as no one knows what he /she might be tomorrow? You never know that few of those children (once grown) be where those parents believe a person should go to paradise and you never know that few of those parents themselves or their own children (like this guy) would be off track. And if it is still too difficult for you to understand then there is a very simple way of doing it. Why not this person goes back and asks his parents that where would he end up now? Paradise or Hell? And let’s see what they say. After all same parents predicted a paradise for him once.

As for puberty again, that is the EARLIEST someone should consider marrying and not the LATEST as you are suggesting. And still it is not like someone standing outside cigi shop on the day he/she turns 18 with a grin on the face that I would be able to buy cigarette after five more minutes as I am turning 18. Again let me put it in simple words for you. By doing that Islam actually stopped people marrying their children even before they reached puberty.

Finally if this is still disturbing you then why not start a different thread instead of talking about it on every single thread here and there wherever you do not have a suitable answer to my questions. That shows your frustration my dear intelligent (self believed) women.

[tamborine]

Keyplus, here for child brides:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage

As for heaven/hell/paradise; none exist except in your mind. Your life today is your only existance.

[RATTER15]

I see Keyplus is starting to rely more and more heavily on insults these days, I think he is starting to realise the futility in his words :))