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this is a post for all:
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atheists and believers to argue whatever they waant, however they want. no violence though lol.
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I just found this article on religion and the army and found it very interesting on many levels. Comments ?
http://richarddawkins...r-country-not-for-god
http://richarddawkins...r-country-not-for-god
I find it can go, a little something, like this.
Atheist: There is no God
Believer: Yes there is.
Atheist: How?
Believer: Because in the Bible it says....
Atheist: That proves nothing
Believer: Well I believe it
Atheist: Well I can disprove a lot of what the Bible says. Look here, and here, and here
Believer: .......
Atheist: Hello?
Believer: .....
Atheist: Is he gone?
Or something to that effect.
Atheist: There is no God
Believer: Yes there is.
Atheist: How?
Believer: Because in the Bible it says....
Atheist: That proves nothing
Believer: Well I believe it
Atheist: Well I can disprove a lot of what the Bible says. Look here, and here, and here
Believer: .......
Atheist: Hello?
Believer: .....
Atheist: Is he gone?
Or something to that effect.
I can't speak for "many atheists" - but if this is what this thread is about, then there have been many before you. Those who don't believe in anything try to get those who do, to show why. We have commented many times before that if someone believes something, why should someone who doesn't, try to undermine that belief. Let 'em get on with it.
@Sith.
"so how come when we argue a point many atheist demand proof?"
Well, why shouldn't we?. We live in an empirical universe, governed by the fundamental laws of physics, chemistry and biology. What god represents, according to those who believe, is a supernatural entity that will pay attention to events on a distant world in a backwater of the universe ( and presumably all those other worlds on which there is life) - pay attention by means of magic. (omniscience). This selfsame supernatural entity can also influence actions and events, here and everywhere else in the universe, again by magic ( omnipotence).
So, given that this entity can meddle with events and hear the prayers of the faithful, it is surely not unreasonable to question exactly how, and what evidence the faithful have? But no, we are told that to believe in the absence of evidence ( faith) is somehow a virtue!
When challenged as to evidence, it comes to this - I was taught that this was so, I have a book that says it is so, and I have faith that it is so. Well sorry, thats not good enough for me. Look at what religion actually is. Every single culture since the dawn of time has had its own religion, and in essence they are all the same - an attempt, by a culture, to explain the scary world around them, and appease the fundamental forces of nature, those over which they have no control and which could wipe them out.
So, do we need it, now, in this day and age? I dont think so. Much of what was once unexplained, scary, or magical can now be explained by perfectly naturalistic means ( for which there are mounds of carefully observed, collated and cross-referenced evidence) - There is simply no need to invoke a supernatural entity to explain anything! Doing so merely acts as an anchor on humanities development and reinforces fable over fact.
Now, if your religion brings you peace and fills an emotional or spiritual hole in your life, then fine - but do not go around expecting everyone else to offer automatic deference or respect for such thinking -we live in a liberal, secular democracy where free speech is something to be treasured - nor should you be trying to force your worldview on anyone else - and you most certainly should not be going to war, or commiting attempted genocide on those who have different beliefs or no belief at all.
This is what I object to - Look at our history, look at the world around you now, and a significant proportion of the misery, the death, the maimings, the repression of whole genders or whole cultures is caused by fanatics in the name of variances in the belief of a supernatural entity that is almost certainly none existent. These beliefs, these attitudes, need to be challenged.How can it be right, for instance, for people to be fearful for their life over cartoon depictions of a supernatural entity? Through these outmoded beliefs, we have laws on thought crime ( blaspemy), and continually have synthetic outrage over "morality" - Why do the religious get so hung up about sex and sexual orientation, for instance?
And then we get those who are so brainwashed over their religion that they try to twist the science to fit their beliefs? How else can you explain the ridiculous and frankly simplistic "science" spewing forth from such institutions as the Discovery Institute and other proponents of Inteliigent Design - "ooh, ooh, it looks designed, it is complex, it could not possibly function without all its parts - evidence of a designer god!" - All nonsense.
Finally, I would never post again on this topic if we didnt get these anti-scientific or warped worldview postings from amongst the more evangelical of us. I will always challenge those :)
"so how come when we argue a point many atheist demand proof?"
Well, why shouldn't we?. We live in an empirical universe, governed by the fundamental laws of physics, chemistry and biology. What god represents, according to those who believe, is a supernatural entity that will pay attention to events on a distant world in a backwater of the universe ( and presumably all those other worlds on which there is life) - pay attention by means of magic. (omniscience). This selfsame supernatural entity can also influence actions and events, here and everywhere else in the universe, again by magic ( omnipotence).
So, given that this entity can meddle with events and hear the prayers of the faithful, it is surely not unreasonable to question exactly how, and what evidence the faithful have? But no, we are told that to believe in the absence of evidence ( faith) is somehow a virtue!
When challenged as to evidence, it comes to this - I was taught that this was so, I have a book that says it is so, and I have faith that it is so. Well sorry, thats not good enough for me. Look at what religion actually is. Every single culture since the dawn of time has had its own religion, and in essence they are all the same - an attempt, by a culture, to explain the scary world around them, and appease the fundamental forces of nature, those over which they have no control and which could wipe them out.
So, do we need it, now, in this day and age? I dont think so. Much of what was once unexplained, scary, or magical can now be explained by perfectly naturalistic means ( for which there are mounds of carefully observed, collated and cross-referenced evidence) - There is simply no need to invoke a supernatural entity to explain anything! Doing so merely acts as an anchor on humanities development and reinforces fable over fact.
Now, if your religion brings you peace and fills an emotional or spiritual hole in your life, then fine - but do not go around expecting everyone else to offer automatic deference or respect for such thinking -we live in a liberal, secular democracy where free speech is something to be treasured - nor should you be trying to force your worldview on anyone else - and you most certainly should not be going to war, or commiting attempted genocide on those who have different beliefs or no belief at all.
This is what I object to - Look at our history, look at the world around you now, and a significant proportion of the misery, the death, the maimings, the repression of whole genders or whole cultures is caused by fanatics in the name of variances in the belief of a supernatural entity that is almost certainly none existent. These beliefs, these attitudes, need to be challenged.How can it be right, for instance, for people to be fearful for their life over cartoon depictions of a supernatural entity? Through these outmoded beliefs, we have laws on thought crime ( blaspemy), and continually have synthetic outrage over "morality" - Why do the religious get so hung up about sex and sexual orientation, for instance?
And then we get those who are so brainwashed over their religion that they try to twist the science to fit their beliefs? How else can you explain the ridiculous and frankly simplistic "science" spewing forth from such institutions as the Discovery Institute and other proponents of Inteliigent Design - "ooh, ooh, it looks designed, it is complex, it could not possibly function without all its parts - evidence of a designer god!" - All nonsense.
Finally, I would never post again on this topic if we didnt get these anti-scientific or warped worldview postings from amongst the more evangelical of us. I will always challenge those :)
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