Crosswords4 mins ago
Is it correct to refer to the Jews as a 'race'?
47 Answers
It is a question that has intrigued me for a while since the phrase 'Jewish race' (and its variants) crop up regularly in the media.
Should it be rightly referred to as a 'race' or is it simply a religious belief? Is it both?
Should it be rightly referred to as a 'race' or is it simply a religious belief? Is it both?
Answers
Race is being stretched for political reasons. The CPS regard a racist crime as: "... any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person."
14:15 Thu 24th May 2012
Perhaps a bit off topic but I believe relevant all the same ~
I strive to focus on the one feature which potentially unites us rather than on those features which tend to segregate us for no good purpose, especially features which we individually are born with and over which we personally have no control. The one feature which distinguishes us as a distinct and unique species and indeed the feature which allows us to carry on a debate is our potential for reasoning, albeit a potential which we might not all share in equal measure and one we realise based on our ability and the culture we were born into and are required to deal with, an ability we must choose to develop and exercise to the extent of our capacity and knowledge of how to reason and why.
As far as I'm concerned, we are born with only the potential to realise our birthright to be human, as distinguished from other species, as a matter of our individual choice to embrace that which defines us, our capacity to reason.
Reason provides us with the means and in practice an awareness and understanding of the advantage to us all in seeking and honouring established mutually beneficial relationships. It is our shared capacity and desire to live together in peace for the good of all who realise what is in our mutual best interest that makes live and let live an achievable and worthwhile goal. If I didn't believe that such a world was possible and worth realising and living in I would never have bothered to say, "Hello", to anyone . . . not that there are not those who would prefer I never had.
Given all the benefits the practice of reason has bestowed upon us we continue to live as an incompletely evolved species in a vast wasteland of unrealised potential and unnecessary and inexcusable suffering, all because so many remain blind to woefully unaware of that which is our greatest virtue, our ability to examine the beliefs handed to us and to determine their validity and value and those that we as individuals should choose to embrace, foster and practice as opposed to asking, "Which delusion do you worship?" or "Who's your daddy?"
I strive to focus on the one feature which potentially unites us rather than on those features which tend to segregate us for no good purpose, especially features which we individually are born with and over which we personally have no control. The one feature which distinguishes us as a distinct and unique species and indeed the feature which allows us to carry on a debate is our potential for reasoning, albeit a potential which we might not all share in equal measure and one we realise based on our ability and the culture we were born into and are required to deal with, an ability we must choose to develop and exercise to the extent of our capacity and knowledge of how to reason and why.
As far as I'm concerned, we are born with only the potential to realise our birthright to be human, as distinguished from other species, as a matter of our individual choice to embrace that which defines us, our capacity to reason.
Reason provides us with the means and in practice an awareness and understanding of the advantage to us all in seeking and honouring established mutually beneficial relationships. It is our shared capacity and desire to live together in peace for the good of all who realise what is in our mutual best interest that makes live and let live an achievable and worthwhile goal. If I didn't believe that such a world was possible and worth realising and living in I would never have bothered to say, "Hello", to anyone . . . not that there are not those who would prefer I never had.
Given all the benefits the practice of reason has bestowed upon us we continue to live as an incompletely evolved species in a vast wasteland of unrealised potential and unnecessary and inexcusable suffering, all because so many remain blind to woefully unaware of that which is our greatest virtue, our ability to examine the beliefs handed to us and to determine their validity and value and those that we as individuals should choose to embrace, foster and practice as opposed to asking, "Which delusion do you worship?" or "Who's your daddy?"
@Shooty - I am a little confused here, perhaps you could clarify?
In your first post, you post a dictionary definition of race that includes the phrase "common descent", and then go on to offer your own definition of the term "common descent" as meaning the faith that people grow up in.
Your assertion that different cultural groupings (religions) can be defined as racial groupings is based around this understanding of the term "common descent" as meaning, in your own words, "
'common descent' would denote the faith that you are born into. "
Now, this is where I have a problem - this definition of yours of the phrase "common descent" as meaning the faith that you were born into is not one I can find anywhere other than your statement, and I think it is an incorrect interpretation of the phrase.
The term "common descent" actually has a specific meaning within evolutionary biology, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_descent , which has nothing to do with religious, cultural groups, and everything to do with a shared, common, biological ancestor.
People who share a common religion are not necessarily of the same race. Religion is a cultural grouping, whereas the term "race" is a biological term. The 2 should not be confused.
Of course, with some religions, there may well be a very close biological link as well, since their religious beliefs preclude mixing with outsiders, for instance.....................
In your first post, you post a dictionary definition of race that includes the phrase "common descent", and then go on to offer your own definition of the term "common descent" as meaning the faith that people grow up in.
Your assertion that different cultural groupings (religions) can be defined as racial groupings is based around this understanding of the term "common descent" as meaning, in your own words, "
'common descent' would denote the faith that you are born into. "
Now, this is where I have a problem - this definition of yours of the phrase "common descent" as meaning the faith that you were born into is not one I can find anywhere other than your statement, and I think it is an incorrect interpretation of the phrase.
The term "common descent" actually has a specific meaning within evolutionary biology, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_descent , which has nothing to do with religious, cultural groups, and everything to do with a shared, common, biological ancestor.
People who share a common religion are not necessarily of the same race. Religion is a cultural grouping, whereas the term "race" is a biological term. The 2 should not be confused.
Of course, with some religions, there may well be a very close biological link as well, since their religious beliefs preclude mixing with outsiders, for instance.....................
It's both religion and race. I have read that it is very difficult to be accepted into the Jewish faith as they want their converts to be doing it for the religion and not other reasons (marriage for one) Not all Jewish people are religious and some belong to other religions. They are a very interesting people to read up on.
Yes Jews are not a very evangelical lot by and large- in fact they fall over themselves to try to not let you convert- it's a real struggle. Equally my wife intermingles elements of Paganism into her life but still considers herself to be a Jew ( racially and as part of the Jewish community) but does not practice Judaism religiously.
I think that the word 'race' has too many meanings for a sensible discussion to take place without agreement on a definition. Biologists, sociologists, politicians, animal breeders etc. all have their own understanding of what the word means.
In this case I agree with 237sj's friend, I doubt that you could separate jews and other palestinians on genetic grounds. Arabs are people who speak Arabic (allegedly) so Jews cannot be copmared with them as it is a case of comparing apples with pears. Jews have declared themselves a 'race' though that is inconsistent with their other claims as to what constitutes a jew.
In this case I agree with 237sj's friend, I doubt that you could separate jews and other palestinians on genetic grounds. Arabs are people who speak Arabic (allegedly) so Jews cannot be copmared with them as it is a case of comparing apples with pears. Jews have declared themselves a 'race' though that is inconsistent with their other claims as to what constitutes a jew.
Race :...4. A group of people sharing the same interests, characteristics, etc 'the race of authors' [Collins English Dictionary]
Race :The offspring or posterity of a person; a set of children or descendants "the race and stocks of Abraham" Shakespeare 'Antony and Cleopatra' [He means the Jews]
: A tribe, nation, or people, regarded as of common stock. [OED]
The twelve tribes of Abraham, and the pesterity thereof are therefore a race by either of the OED definitions. Therefore the Jews have been 'regarded' as a race and so defined for a long while. They may also be regarded as a race by the Collins definition
Race :The offspring or posterity of a person; a set of children or descendants "the race and stocks of Abraham" Shakespeare 'Antony and Cleopatra' [He means the Jews]
: A tribe, nation, or people, regarded as of common stock. [OED]
The twelve tribes of Abraham, and the pesterity thereof are therefore a race by either of the OED definitions. Therefore the Jews have been 'regarded' as a race and so defined for a long while. They may also be regarded as a race by the Collins definition
I don't think there is a decent definitive definition for the word 'race' as applied to different people, which allow some to suggest there is no such thing. I consider that an attempt to deny/ignore the obvious, but it does point out that drawing such a lines is a subjective thing.
However to be a separate race I think you need a common distinctive feature which allows you to be distinguished from other races; and as far as I can tell there is no such thing the Jews can point to, to make that distinction. So it is clear to me they are not a separate race but a religious group.
However to be a separate race I think you need a common distinctive feature which allows you to be distinguished from other races; and as far as I can tell there is no such thing the Jews can point to, to make that distinction. So it is clear to me they are not a separate race but a religious group.
Judaism is a religion practiced by Jews, in the same way that Buddhism is a religion practiced by Buddhists, Islam is practiced by Muslims etc..., so to my mind it is most most definitely a religious belief.
Its one of the reasons why I've never been able to understand why the criticism of Muslims is often greeted by cries of racism (there are some on this very site who do this - they know who they are).
If criticising Muslims is racist, then presumably so is the criticism of Roman Catholics.
Its one of the reasons why I've never been able to understand why the criticism of Muslims is often greeted by cries of racism (there are some on this very site who do this - they know who they are).
If criticising Muslims is racist, then presumably so is the criticism of Roman Catholics.
Surely the Jews are a race who largely practise the religion of Judaism. It is possible to convert to Judaism, for example a Gentile marrying a Jew might do so. And similarly it is possible to be Jewish and not practise Judaism - for example, those who have converted to Christianity, such as the Jews for Jesus movement. Although I suppose they would still consider themselves to be practising Judaism - just with the added benefit of having a Messiah.
FredPuli43 - “... Race :...4. A group of people sharing the same interests, characteristics, etc 'the race of authors' [Collins English Dictionary]... Therefore the Jews have been 'regarded' as a race and so defined for a long while. They may also be regarded as a race by the Collins definition...”
Agreed.
However, what I find mystifying about the word 'race' is the idea that people who share a common interest can also be classified as a 'race'. That seems overly simplistic to me. In fact, I would suggest that it is plain wrong.
If a group of people who share a common interest can be classified as a 'race' then it would be fair to say that regular contributors to The Answer Bank are a distinct 'race' of people. Clearly, that is patently absurd but that is what is suggested by the dictionary definition of the term.
Agreed.
However, what I find mystifying about the word 'race' is the idea that people who share a common interest can also be classified as a 'race'. That seems overly simplistic to me. In fact, I would suggest that it is plain wrong.
If a group of people who share a common interest can be classified as a 'race' then it would be fair to say that regular contributors to The Answer Bank are a distinct 'race' of people. Clearly, that is patently absurd but that is what is suggested by the dictionary definition of the term.
Kiki-frog - “... Surely the Jews are a race who largely practise the religion of Judaism... And similarly it is possible to be Jewish and not practise Judaism - for example, those who have converted to Christianity, such as the Jews for Jesus movement....”
Since people who have no discernible Jewish lineage can (under certain conditions) become Jewish, surely this disproves the idea that the Jews are a distinct race. There are also black African Jews...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Jews
If I were to place, side by side, a typical 'Caucasian' Israeli Jewish gentleman and a 'Negroid' African Jewish gentleman, I doubt that many people would consider them to be of the same 'race'. Yet that is what is implied by the dictionary definition of the word.
This is why I consider the current definition of the word 'race' to be so malleable as to be almost meaningless.
Since people who have no discernible Jewish lineage can (under certain conditions) become Jewish, surely this disproves the idea that the Jews are a distinct race. There are also black African Jews...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Jews
If I were to place, side by side, a typical 'Caucasian' Israeli Jewish gentleman and a 'Negroid' African Jewish gentleman, I doubt that many people would consider them to be of the same 'race'. Yet that is what is implied by the dictionary definition of the word.
This is why I consider the current definition of the word 'race' to be so malleable as to be almost meaningless.
Latest Posts
Quizzes & Puzzles6 mins ago
Bbc Admits Hamas ‘Civilian’...
News7 mins ago
Crosswords11 mins ago
Technology19 mins ago
Home & Garden48 mins ago
Related Questions
Sorry, we can't find any related questions. Try using the search bar at the top of the page to search for some keywords, or choose a topic and submit your own question.