LISTENER CROSSWORD 4022 At arms length by Hotspur

[Clamzy]

Maybe all our prominent members are resting after last week's exertions, so I'll kick off this week's thread. Haven't had more than a glance at it yet and am not too familiar with this setter.

[Philoctetes]

One nice thought for an old fogey. Having tried Google and been swamped, as usual, with information I did not need, I found all the information I did need in the old faithful Oxford Companion, quickly and concisely. Though whether it would include "T" or the cat I have no idea.

[Apache4D]

Mysterons, apologies if you thought I was being argumentative, I was just clearly happier than most about these.......I understand your point, but surely the definition can always lead to multiple answers, that is the purpose of the wordplay and part of the challenge. As long as the answer is an example of the definition, I think that is fine.

Slightly puzzled that you think "organic" is inappropriate as surely without it the subject that the adjective is refering too would seem very vague indeed.

Anyway, thanks for the reply, completely understand your stance and guess i'm far from being a purist and have alot to learn!

[twoshortplan]

Now that the magic 100 is reached we can relax - may I ask a question which seems stupid?
I found this thread through Google. This relies on the search engine doing its work successfully.

How do I search for Listener 4022 on this site? The search bars (Web and Site) at the top seem to both use Google. Does this mean that if Google hasn't yet found Listener 4022 then it can't be found on this site except by viewing multiple posts?

[Apache4D]

Oh and finally finished, had added an extra letter to the end of the culprit in my hunt, had heard of it but not the correct spelling!!

As always am impressed with the quick solvers, think my average solve time for the first 8 puzzles of the year is edging closer to 4 days of solid graft!!!!

Oh Mysterons, forgot to mention a surgeon friend of mine was similarly unimpressed by 19 down when I mentioned it to him as I believe the word is much more frequently used for another type of episode!

[JackDeCrow]

In terms of order, big difference for me between order of filling in the grid and order of identifying members of group 1. F and N reasonably early on for both. H and J solved reasonably early on but in spite of thinking they looked promising, took a long time to find out why. Missed K the first time I looked it up, and he only returned to replace N the cat! As for B, had the wrong partner to start with (before I realised the rendezvous was quite so physical) and even managed to talk myself into a completely different B, but linked to K's partner! Never had a T, though - must look into that!

[Mysterons]

Thanks for that Jack, I was wondering where the cat was hiding ! (At least you knew he wasn't human !).
I presume the T should actually be S (for 31 Down) ?


No apology needed Apache - I think it's great that we can discuss these things openly here - after all these are only our opinions. Well done on your completion, I guess you were adding a K to the end, so no harm done !

The real problem with 19 down is that it doesn't mention the organ concerned - the insertion of cerebral as the penultimate word would have greatly strengthened the definition and made the clue fairer, without jeopardising the surface reading, making the clue too easy to solve or adding an extra line in the newspaper.

Of course the definition can point to several possible answers, and this is honed down to one by the word length, available letters and the wordplay. My criticism of 8 down is that there are literally hundreds of membranes to choose from in nature, and thousands of other 'barriers', so this particular definition is far too loose. Qualifying this barrier as organic may have excluded thousands of others, but it would be misleading to suggest that this particular barrier has to be organic. At the end of the day the clue should be fair and the definition helpful to the solver.

[easterfool]

For what it is worth (statistically not a lot, I suspect) my order of linking was FNK followed after a bit of a hunt by B then H and finally J. I spent some time chasing a couple of A's (fruitlessly). The second group came quickly having found the critical rendezvous and then realised the intricacies round there - which finally gave me the J link. I also was looking found an L in the second group, but with no corresponding first group member. An elderly Oxford Companion was useful for most but obviously not the last pair. I can't find my dictionary of Literary Characters - after a decorating mix-up of the books - so that held me up, I think. However still a good theme etc.
The thread is getting very philosophical over clueing, but in this case, as I've implied before, I don't reckon that it has been anywhere near as sound as the last 2 crosswords, which I reckoned to be masters of the misleading leading to the AHA moment - which I rate very highly for satisfaction.

[Clamzy]

T??? It's not even close to K on my keyboard so I don't know what excuse to offer:-)

[Philoctetes]

Clamzy - perhaps it was your subconscious requesting a cuppa :)

[cluelessJoe]

For what it's worth, the Chambers dictionary of Literary Characters is a nice ref book to add to your shelves (if like me you prefer hardcopy reference to online searches). It did only have 5 of the 6 but not a bad start. I picked mine up via Amazon independent sellers (brand new) for under a couple of quid + postage.

[robinruth]

We've actually gone ahead and ordered it, since it was clearly lacking in our reference library and we are interested to see which of the six is not there! But - with overseas postage and you snapping up the cheapest copy, Not So Clueless Joe, we had to pay three times as much! If it's a numerical one today, we'll see you in two weeks.

[JackDeCrow]

My money is on H or B for the missing one! Since 5 were actually eponymous, can anyone confirm whether there is a good enough dictionary of English Literature to have contained them as such, as my Concise Oxford version is clearly in need of an upgrade?!

[Cruncher]

JackdeCrow - 5 eponymous references? I made it only 4, so not J or N. Seems like there may be some variant readings on this one!

[robinruth]

I can understand the discrepancy since another valid and literary rendez-vous person wrote a biography of the same N (with the title N) in addition to the rather swinish text where N is a hero - J is clearly the other non-eponymous one. Clearly, if you submitted, both answers are valid.

[Mysterons]

............. moreover, the Listener scrutineer will have no way of knowing whether you intended N by O or N by B !

[uncletony]

I used the Oxford Companion to English Literature (available online witn a library card) which includes all except B. This last one was mopped up with the Dictionary of Writers and their Works.

Congratulations robinruth on your hard work bearing fruit. A note of caution though - a submission that depended on your second choice for N could easily have been marked wrong. It would be argued that a biography of a real person does not fit with the crossword's literary theme. No problem here, but these are the sorts of things you'll have to bear in mind as you continue to make progress.

[robinruth]

Many thanks, Uncle Tony - we are learning as we go - doing the Listener more as a personal challenge and certainly not with any ambitions of completing full years or 'winning'. These threads, incorporating so much wise advice, are invaluable to us.

[Mysterons]

........but more often such an (unforeseeen) ambiguity could be regarded as a puzzle's weakness, and more latitude is given when marking the thematic highlighting. The editors may even have spotted the possible 'duplication' in this instance, but as there is no requirement to highlight O's name, there is no problem. On the other hand, it would have been very easy to state in the preamble that the sets are of the same size, so maybe they didn't spot it. In any case, well done to you both for doing so !

[Flocko]

I have to disagree Mysterons. I am aware of very few, if any, recent admissions of alternative solutions.

In this case it's true that an entry could be accepted that derived from an incorrect understanding of the theme. But Uncle Tony is right, a biography certainly doesn't fit, and anyone who thought it did failed to understand the theme. Particularly where the alternative is a VERY well-known work.

[Clamzy]

Flocko - I recently had CORBIERE admitted when the given answer was RED RUM, and there was another which stubbornly refuses to come to mind just now, but it has happened twice in the last year or so.