Politics3 mins ago
Should The Senior Officers Of The London Fire Brigade Be Prosecuted?
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I look at this analogy
An aerial mine comes through a hospital ward roof trapping thirty six non ambulatory patients . A Bomb disposal officer is called with his team to assess the situation. He recognises the enemy bomb as a 500kg with a Type XX1V fuse.The bomb is ticking so he is against the clock.He is familiar with this bomb and its fuse as he has defused several before. He extricates the fuse from its pocket and renders the bomb safe. He calls his team forward to remove the bomb and start casualty evacuation procedures. As the team moves the bomb it explodes killing all.
This bomb was unique. It was the first the enemy had used with a second anti-handling trembler fuse.
Who is held responsible for this unforseen tragedy.? The officer's higher command were unaware of this type of trap,as was his training team.
If the cause is later established and future officers are not told of this secondary danger then lessons have not been learnt and culpable responsibility should be held against those who were trained to deal with this incident and did not pass on their expertise and training.
This bomb was unique,as was, the fire at Grenfell. Some of the junior fire fighters had not been trained or advised on Tower block fires or evacuation at the time.
An aerial mine comes through a hospital ward roof trapping thirty six non ambulatory patients . A Bomb disposal officer is called with his team to assess the situation. He recognises the enemy bomb as a 500kg with a Type XX1V fuse.The bomb is ticking so he is against the clock.He is familiar with this bomb and its fuse as he has defused several before. He extricates the fuse from its pocket and renders the bomb safe. He calls his team forward to remove the bomb and start casualty evacuation procedures. As the team moves the bomb it explodes killing all.
This bomb was unique. It was the first the enemy had used with a second anti-handling trembler fuse.
Who is held responsible for this unforseen tragedy.? The officer's higher command were unaware of this type of trap,as was his training team.
If the cause is later established and future officers are not told of this secondary danger then lessons have not been learnt and culpable responsibility should be held against those who were trained to deal with this incident and did not pass on their expertise and training.
This bomb was unique,as was, the fire at Grenfell. Some of the junior fire fighters had not been trained or advised on Tower block fires or evacuation at the time.
Acting according to protocol may seem a criticism, but when the protocol is based on best known practice then it's departing from it that would be more likely to be legitimately criticised. One lives and learns; in this case to be aware that proper fire practice may not have been followed, and to try to ascertain that before it's too late to change strategy. All this finger pointing isn't helpful.
> Without a doubt the stay put procedure had been properly assessed and 100% believed to be the correct way at the time.
> Procedures change, lessons are learned
...
> Grenfell was a perfect/unholy storm of happenings, the like of which had never been seen before.
Lessons are not learned, and its like had happened before.
* https:/
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https:/
Catherine Hickman was on the phone when she died. It wasn't a panicked call or an attempt to have some last words with a loved one.
As a BBC Two documentary recounts, she had been speaking to a 999 operator for 40 minutes, remaining calm and following the advice to "stay put" in her tower block flat.
As smoke surrounded her, she stayed put. As flames came through the floorboards, she stayed put. At 16:30, she told the operator: "It's orange, it's orange everywhere" before saying she was "getting really hot in here".
Believing to the last that she was in the safest place, she carried on talking to the operator - until she stopped.
"Hello Catherine.
"Hello Catherine. Can you make any noise so I know that you're listening to me?
"Catherine, can you make any noise?
"Can you bang your phone or anything?
"Catherine, are you there?
"I think that's the phone gone [CALL ENDS]"
Miss Hickman was not a resident of Grenfell Tower. The fire in which she and five others died happened in July 2009, at 12-storey Lakanal House in Camberwell, south London. But that same "stay put" advice was given to Grenfell residents eight years later. Many of those who did never made it out alive.
> Procedures change, lessons are learned
...
> Grenfell was a perfect/unholy storm of happenings, the like of which had never been seen before.
Lessons are not learned, and its like had happened before.
* https:/
----------------------------------------------------------
https:/
Catherine Hickman was on the phone when she died. It wasn't a panicked call or an attempt to have some last words with a loved one.
As a BBC Two documentary recounts, she had been speaking to a 999 operator for 40 minutes, remaining calm and following the advice to "stay put" in her tower block flat.
As smoke surrounded her, she stayed put. As flames came through the floorboards, she stayed put. At 16:30, she told the operator: "It's orange, it's orange everywhere" before saying she was "getting really hot in here".
Believing to the last that she was in the safest place, she carried on talking to the operator - until she stopped.
"Hello Catherine.
"Hello Catherine. Can you make any noise so I know that you're listening to me?
"Catherine, can you make any noise?
"Can you bang your phone or anything?
"Catherine, are you there?
"I think that's the phone gone [CALL ENDS]"
Miss Hickman was not a resident of Grenfell Tower. The fire in which she and five others died happened in July 2009, at 12-storey Lakanal House in Camberwell, south London. But that same "stay put" advice was given to Grenfell residents eight years later. Many of those who did never made it out alive.
//who happen to be mainly ethnic minorities...//
Why is that relevant OAG?
No, prosecuting individuals from the fire brigade, no matter their level of authority isnt the way forward. Nobody wanted to see this tragedy and all involved did their upmost to prevent it. Those who made what turned out to be bad decisions did so with the best intentions. I understand that those close to the victims are looking for blame, but it has to be the correct people being prosecuted, and that is those responsible for putting money before safety when constructing the towers.
Why is that relevant OAG?
No, prosecuting individuals from the fire brigade, no matter their level of authority isnt the way forward. Nobody wanted to see this tragedy and all involved did their upmost to prevent it. Those who made what turned out to be bad decisions did so with the best intentions. I understand that those close to the victims are looking for blame, but it has to be the correct people being prosecuted, and that is those responsible for putting money before safety when constructing the towers.
I'm not sure why it is relevant that most are ethnic minorities. Would it make any difference if they were all indigenous English?
It's understandable that they are angry. Anger and wanting to blame someone is part of the grieving process - but more so in a terrible tragedy like this.
At present I do not believe that the Senior Officers should face prosecution. But I'll wait and see what the next phase of the inquiry reveals.
It's understandable that they are angry. Anger and wanting to blame someone is part of the grieving process - but more so in a terrible tragedy like this.
At present I do not believe that the Senior Officers should face prosecution. But I'll wait and see what the next phase of the inquiry reveals.
This is a searchable transcript of the original Inquiry
https:/
You might like to search using the word 'stay'.
https:/
You might like to search using the word 'stay'.
Ok I've read through this drivel and can't keep quiet any longer.
I doubt ANYONE here would run into a smoke filled building to rescue people not knowing if you were going to get out alive. Firefighters do this day in and day out. To even contemplate prosecuting any of these people is disgraceful., just as insinuating they made the wrong choices as the occupants were ethic minorities is nauseating too.
I doubt ANYONE here would run into a smoke filled building to rescue people not knowing if you were going to get out alive. Firefighters do this day in and day out. To even contemplate prosecuting any of these people is disgraceful., just as insinuating they made the wrong choices as the occupants were ethic minorities is nauseating too.
//I'm not sure why it is relevant that most are ethnic minorities. Would it make any difference if they were all indigenous English?//
According to Doreen Lawrence, it most certainly did:
https:/
We discussed her remarks on here a couple of weeks ago:
https:/
According to Doreen Lawrence, it most certainly did:
https:/
We discussed her remarks on here a couple of weeks ago:
https:/
// //I'm not sure why it is relevant that most are ethnic minorities. Would it make any difference if they were all indigenous English?//
According to Doreen Lawrence, it most certainly did://
I hadnt seen any of that. But that is breathtaking stupidity. Indeed, it is offensive to suggest that of the officers. I'm really flabbergasted.
According to Doreen Lawrence, it most certainly did://
I hadnt seen any of that. But that is breathtaking stupidity. Indeed, it is offensive to suggest that of the officers. I'm really flabbergasted.
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