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Eu Citizens "do Not Feel Welcome"
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In the year to March, approximately 120,000 EU citizens left the UK - a marked increase in the usual number leaving before 2016, and many citing that they felt "unwelcome" or "uncertain" from the way they were being treated by the public.
Businesses, in turn, are expressing concerns about a "brain drain" as they lose the skills of these people.
Do people feel this is a positive development, or should the UK try to be more welcoming?
In the year to March, approximately 120,000 EU citizens left the UK - a marked increase in the usual number leaving before 2016, and many citing that they felt "unwelcome" or "uncertain" from the way they were being treated by the public.
Businesses, in turn, are expressing concerns about a "brain drain" as they lose the skills of these people.
Do people feel this is a positive development, or should the UK try to be more welcoming?
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It depends on what you mean by positive.
Not positive that they feel unwelcome or uncertain. But the uncertainty is due to not knowing what is going to happen. That's life and they will get over it and an answer in due course.
It was inevitable that more would leave when Brexit was announced. People jump or make decisions quickly sometimes.
It looks increasingly like the 'foreigners' will get very good rights so perhaps jumping too soon wasn't the best option. Who knows.
'Brain drain'. Well they could come back when it all said done. Providing the uncertainty doesn't drag on with blocking and delaying of course.
Not positive that they feel unwelcome or uncertain. But the uncertainty is due to not knowing what is going to happen. That's life and they will get over it and an answer in due course.
It was inevitable that more would leave when Brexit was announced. People jump or make decisions quickly sometimes.
It looks increasingly like the 'foreigners' will get very good rights so perhaps jumping too soon wasn't the best option. Who knows.
'Brain drain'. Well they could come back when it all said done. Providing the uncertainty doesn't drag on with blocking and delaying of course.
It is politicians who are causing the uncertainty by the constant prevarication and dithering. It is quite clear that the EU has no intention of supporting a "deal" for the UK. It was obvious from 24th June last year that the UK will be "punished" for having the cheek to leave the blessed European Project. With that in mind politicians need to prepare for a proper Brexit. That said, I do not believe either side has any intention of disadvantaging EU citizens on either side of the channel. What must be resisted at all costs is for the ECJ to have any say on the rights of people living here. Any disputes that anybody living in the UK has must be settled by the UK courts. It is absolutely outrageous to suggest that EU citizens living in the EU have recourse to a foreign court. If they want the protection of the ECJ then they must live in the EU. It seems that's what many of them have chosen to do. Whether that trend continues time will tell.
I didn't answer the last bit of your question, Kromo.
The UK is one of the most welcoming nations on Earth. It welcomes allcomers to such a degree that people are risking their lives to get here illegally. UK businesses welcome foreign workers. What is required (and what is one of the main points of Brexit) is that the UK regains the right to refuse admission to those it believes will not benefit the country. If that makes people already here feel unwelcome then that's unfortunate.
The UK is one of the most welcoming nations on Earth. It welcomes allcomers to such a degree that people are risking their lives to get here illegally. UK businesses welcome foreign workers. What is required (and what is one of the main points of Brexit) is that the UK regains the right to refuse admission to those it believes will not benefit the country. If that makes people already here feel unwelcome then that's unfortunate.
Brexit is the fault of foreigners, the lack of a deal is the fault of foreigners and brexodus too is the fault of foreigners. It is good that foreigners are leaving the blessed UK which, in the UK being the world's best country, will be the purer and better for it so that brexit can be of the purest possible form. Hopefully the world will disappear or at least go far away so that the UK can protect its pure brexit entirely without having to think of anyone or anywhere else........except to make lots of money from them on the basis of its "independence", because after all the UK is so much to be admired (as "they" will come to learn in the fullness of time).
I suspect much of the fear and uncertainty has been caused by project Fear coupled with the fact the EU refused to discuss citizen rights when May suggested it right up front.
A 'Brain drain' will not happen. There are not enough in key jobs and many have not left anyway. 'Big' business is probably more afraid of loosing cheap labour.
//What must be resisted at all costs is for the ECJ to have any say on the rights of people living here.// Absolutely NJ. Just out of interest are the EU offering UK citizens living abroad the option of abiding by UK law?
A 'Brain drain' will not happen. There are not enough in key jobs and many have not left anyway. 'Big' business is probably more afraid of loosing cheap labour.
//What must be resisted at all costs is for the ECJ to have any say on the rights of people living here.// Absolutely NJ. Just out of interest are the EU offering UK citizens living abroad the option of abiding by UK law?
The Polish couple next door - I expressed regret at the uncertainly and a hope they would stay
Ans they basically said
you know what ? we had to uproot ourselves from Poland to come here so that is the hard bit over - we can just do it again if necessary, we now know how it is done..... [ without even the emotional uncertainty of thinking - are we doing the right thing?]
Ans they basically said
you know what ? we had to uproot ourselves from Poland to come here so that is the hard bit over - we can just do it again if necessary, we now know how it is done..... [ without even the emotional uncertainty of thinking - are we doing the right thing?]
"Just out of interest are the EU offering UK citizens living abroad the option of abiding by UK law?"
I'm not quite sure that the symmetry you are wanting to imply exists, although I hope that someone like NJ or Barmaid could shed more light on this because it's a bit too involved for me to be sure that I've got this right. But I think you'd essentially be asking the EU to give UK citizens rights they didn't previously have, while the EU is asking the UK to maintain the rights EU Citizens resident here already had.
I think. I hope I've got this right, and if I haven't then I apologise of course and hope to be corrected. Also I'm not commenting on which side here is right or wrong. It seems unfair that EU citizens living here should be (potentially) stripped of rights they previously enjoyed, without having had any real say in the matter (remember that EU citizens were excluded from the referendum), but on the other hand it's hard to deny that the logical consequences of Brexit would include EU rights no longer applying here at all at some point.
The only way to balance these two is in some sort of messy compromise, eg by allowing EU citizens to enjoy full EU rights but only if they were resident in the UK before a certain date.
I'm not quite sure that the symmetry you are wanting to imply exists, although I hope that someone like NJ or Barmaid could shed more light on this because it's a bit too involved for me to be sure that I've got this right. But I think you'd essentially be asking the EU to give UK citizens rights they didn't previously have, while the EU is asking the UK to maintain the rights EU Citizens resident here already had.
I think. I hope I've got this right, and if I haven't then I apologise of course and hope to be corrected. Also I'm not commenting on which side here is right or wrong. It seems unfair that EU citizens living here should be (potentially) stripped of rights they previously enjoyed, without having had any real say in the matter (remember that EU citizens were excluded from the referendum), but on the other hand it's hard to deny that the logical consequences of Brexit would include EU rights no longer applying here at all at some point.
The only way to balance these two is in some sort of messy compromise, eg by allowing EU citizens to enjoy full EU rights but only if they were resident in the UK before a certain date.
I wonder where these 120,00 EU citizens have fled to? Roumania, Albania, Austria? Were they all truly geniuses, here to be the willing saviours of Britain?
A piece confected for the Independent( Yes I know) by Lizzie Dearden, who aptly writes a blog called "Muck Rack".
In her own words.
"I am a senior reporter at The Independent, where my current interests include the refugee crisis, terrorism and conflict".
How very profound. What she means is that the more of these thing there are the more chance I have of milking a living from the tragedies.
A piece confected for the Independent( Yes I know) by Lizzie Dearden, who aptly writes a blog called "Muck Rack".
In her own words.
"I am a senior reporter at The Independent, where my current interests include the refugee crisis, terrorism and conflict".
How very profound. What she means is that the more of these thing there are the more chance I have of milking a living from the tragedies.
“Just out of interest are the EU offering UK citizens living abroad the option of abiding by UK law?”
I should not think so for so for one minute, youngmaf. What they seem to want is for there to be just one set of rules for all EU citizens – including those remaining in the UK post-Brexit. Those rules of course will be subject to arbitration by the ECJ.
“But I think you'd essentially be asking the EU to give UK citizens rights they didn't previously have,…”
I don’t think that’s quite correct, Jim. UK citizens currently enjoy the same rights as all other EU citizens. I would expect those rights to be lost and replaced by a set of rights applicable only to UK citizens (and those rights could be modified by the UK Parliament). I would also expect EU citizens who remain in the UK to also enjoy those rights but lose their EU rights for so long as they remain here. Whatever is decided there must be no compromise on UK courts being the final arbiter of any dispute. In practice I doubt there will be many. The UK will still be signatories to the ECHR and I can’t imagine too many conflicts between EU citizens’ rights and those which the UK is likely to bestow. Of course the right to “freedom of movement” will be lost but that freedom is only applicable to EU nations. It would be hardly fair if that freedom were extended to EU citizens living in a non-EU/EEA country.
In short, the EU should have nothing to do with the arbitration of the rights of its citizens living in the UK. The idea is preposterous. No other country would accept the jurisdiction of a foreign court in disputes involving foreign nationals residing in their country. It should be an absolute red line with no room for “compromise” whatsoever.
It's unfortunate that some EU citizens living in the UK feel unwelcome. The root cause of their discomfort is the EU's continued drive towards a single federal state, encouraging the citizens of all member states to believe that the project was only going in one direction and was irreversible. Fortunately the UK decided it did not want to be part of such a project before (and only just before IMHO) it was too late.
I should not think so for so for one minute, youngmaf. What they seem to want is for there to be just one set of rules for all EU citizens – including those remaining in the UK post-Brexit. Those rules of course will be subject to arbitration by the ECJ.
“But I think you'd essentially be asking the EU to give UK citizens rights they didn't previously have,…”
I don’t think that’s quite correct, Jim. UK citizens currently enjoy the same rights as all other EU citizens. I would expect those rights to be lost and replaced by a set of rights applicable only to UK citizens (and those rights could be modified by the UK Parliament). I would also expect EU citizens who remain in the UK to also enjoy those rights but lose their EU rights for so long as they remain here. Whatever is decided there must be no compromise on UK courts being the final arbiter of any dispute. In practice I doubt there will be many. The UK will still be signatories to the ECHR and I can’t imagine too many conflicts between EU citizens’ rights and those which the UK is likely to bestow. Of course the right to “freedom of movement” will be lost but that freedom is only applicable to EU nations. It would be hardly fair if that freedom were extended to EU citizens living in a non-EU/EEA country.
In short, the EU should have nothing to do with the arbitration of the rights of its citizens living in the UK. The idea is preposterous. No other country would accept the jurisdiction of a foreign court in disputes involving foreign nationals residing in their country. It should be an absolute red line with no room for “compromise” whatsoever.
It's unfortunate that some EU citizens living in the UK feel unwelcome. The root cause of their discomfort is the EU's continued drive towards a single federal state, encouraging the citizens of all member states to believe that the project was only going in one direction and was irreversible. Fortunately the UK decided it did not want to be part of such a project before (and only just before IMHO) it was too late.
Thanks for that jim and I sort of get your point.
So one thing that would still be a problem is where EU law changes (and it will) after we leave. Because then the EU citizen would be in the same position as the UK citizen you have spoken about.
Basically I just dont think it would work. If you live in a country you need to abide by the laws of that country. UK or anywhere.
So one thing that would still be a problem is where EU law changes (and it will) after we leave. Because then the EU citizen would be in the same position as the UK citizen you have spoken about.
Basically I just dont think it would work. If you live in a country you need to abide by the laws of that country. UK or anywhere.
Thanks for the alternative view, NJ -- as I say I'm not quite sure if I've understood the position correctly.
"The root cause of their discomfort is the EU's continued drive towards a single federal state, encouraging the citizens of all member states to believe that the project was only going in one direction and was irreversible. Fortunately the UK decided it did not want to be part of such a project before (and only just before IMHO) it was too late."
I think that's a little too biased, though. The UK government, after all, was happy enough to allow this for its own part, until the referendum at least. Now it's in the difficult position of having to adopt two positions that are directly contradictory, ie trying to ensure that EU citizens don't lose any rights while also taking those rights away, as would be consistent with the result of last year.
"The root cause of their discomfort is the EU's continued drive towards a single federal state, encouraging the citizens of all member states to believe that the project was only going in one direction and was irreversible. Fortunately the UK decided it did not want to be part of such a project before (and only just before IMHO) it was too late."
I think that's a little too biased, though. The UK government, after all, was happy enough to allow this for its own part, until the referendum at least. Now it's in the difficult position of having to adopt two positions that are directly contradictory, ie trying to ensure that EU citizens don't lose any rights while also taking those rights away, as would be consistent with the result of last year.
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