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Forget About France's Burkini Ban, Things Could Get Much Worse.
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Round about 1,300 years ago a group of Muslims colloquially known as the Moors, resident in northern Africa. Invaded the Iberian Peninsula. It took them around eight years to conquer what is now Spain and Portugal. In doing so they managed to convert many of the Christians living in that neck of the woods to Islam and by the year 1000 about 70% of the area’s...
13:04 Sat 27th Aug 2016
Talbot - //Perceived?
Then the internet it seems is awash with lying Muslim women pretending they were forced to wear a face veil. //
I am not suggesting that there are not Muslim women who are oppressed into wearing a full-face veil outside their home.
What I am saying is that the automatic Western assumption that every Muslim woman wearing a veil is oppressed and forced to wear it is a false assumption based on a cultural difference.
Then the internet it seems is awash with lying Muslim women pretending they were forced to wear a face veil. //
I am not suggesting that there are not Muslim women who are oppressed into wearing a full-face veil outside their home.
What I am saying is that the automatic Western assumption that every Muslim woman wearing a veil is oppressed and forced to wear it is a false assumption based on a cultural difference.
jim360 - //Perhaps NJ would also, in his O Level studies of history, have learned that oppression of religion was never anything other than a travesty and complete failure, and a stain on any country who attempted it? Or did they skip that part? //
What continues to amaze me on our daily efforts to point out that extremism is, by definition, a small minority approach, is that people blithely moan about the 'oppression' of Muslim women, while simultaneously supporting a similarly oppressive action in banning a religious garment.
It seems 'oppression' is only an issue if it is perceived as being Muslim-based - if a Western council, or government chooses to oppress it's citizens with draconian dress codes, that is deemed as acceptable.
I suggest that neither is acceptable.
The only difference I can see is that the Muslim 'oppression' is a matter of perception, but the Western oppression is a matter of law.
What continues to amaze me on our daily efforts to point out that extremism is, by definition, a small minority approach, is that people blithely moan about the 'oppression' of Muslim women, while simultaneously supporting a similarly oppressive action in banning a religious garment.
It seems 'oppression' is only an issue if it is perceived as being Muslim-based - if a Western council, or government chooses to oppress it's citizens with draconian dress codes, that is deemed as acceptable.
I suggest that neither is acceptable.
The only difference I can see is that the Muslim 'oppression' is a matter of perception, but the Western oppression is a matter of law.
Round about 500 years ago a group of Christians colloquially known as the Conquistadors, resident in Spain and Portugal (and later France and Britain), invaded the Americas. It took them around 20 years to conquer what is now Mexico, Chile and other parts of Central and South America. In doing so they managed to convert many of the Aztecs/ Incas living in that neck of the woods to Christianity and by the year 1900 about 70% of the area’s population was Christian (many of the indigenous population having been enslaved, slaughtered or fallen victim to new disease).
During this time of occupation (which had similar but smaller versions taking place in North America) the various “denomination”, in true West European Christian tradition, had various skirmishes amongst themselves (including at least 30 separate wars... and a five-year Civil War or two). Although they did not make much progress beyond the Rio Grande and Mississippi rivers, the occupation ... well, actually, it's still going on, and good luck to any remaining indigenous peoples who dare to complain about this.
In the 19th Century a coalition of Native tribes, fed up with the way Christian culture and practices had been enforced upon the population, began the job of driving out the Conquerors from the Americas. They failed and got slaughtered all over again.
What has all this to do with this question? Absolutely nothing. But we can cherry-pick history to paint whatever picture we like about a group of people we don't.
During this time of occupation (which had similar but smaller versions taking place in North America) the various “denomination”, in true West European Christian tradition, had various skirmishes amongst themselves (including at least 30 separate wars... and a five-year Civil War or two). Although they did not make much progress beyond the Rio Grande and Mississippi rivers, the occupation ... well, actually, it's still going on, and good luck to any remaining indigenous peoples who dare to complain about this.
In the 19th Century a coalition of Native tribes, fed up with the way Christian culture and practices had been enforced upon the population, began the job of driving out the Conquerors from the Americas. They failed and got slaughtered all over again.
What has all this to do with this question? Absolutely nothing. But we can cherry-pick history to paint whatever picture we like about a group of people we don't.
If I Holiday to a Muslim Country, as soon as that plane / Ship or whatever form of transport I use I know the law is different & I abide by it no matter what, why is it muslims when the come here can say what they like, do what they like, have have a doz wifes and a heard of children, preach hatred i a country that welcomes them with open arms, supports them with anything, then they thank us by trying to blow up up, the burka or whatever you call this stupid thing could & has been a shield to disguise a terrorist, a total ban, if you don't like the law feck off.
TWR - //If I Holiday to a Muslim Country, as soon as that plane / Ship or whatever form of transport I use I know the law is different & I abide by it no matter what, //
No problem there - but you will find that no-one will force your wife / partner if you have one, to wear a full-face veil if she does not wish so to do.
// why is it muslims when the come here can say what they like, do what they like, have have a doz wifes and a heard of children, preach hatred i a country that welcomes them with open arms, supports them with anything, then they thank us by trying to blow up up, //
That is something of a sweeping generalisation - the assumption that all Muslims who come here have a dozen wives and a 'herd' of children and thanks their host country by trying to blow it up.
It is of course as nonsensical as assuming that every British citizen that emigrates to a Muslim country insists on Sky TV and a care providing a full English breakfast on every corner is his right from the day he arrives.
// the burka or whatever you call this stupid thing could & has been a shield to disguise a terrorist, //
Indeed it has - but the Kray twins were never seen without a smart suit with a shirt and tie - should we ban those as well?
// a total ban, if you don't like the law feck off. //
The ban is unreasonable, draconian and oppressive, and without serious cultural foundation apart from an inherent media-fanned distrust of other cultural dress codes.
No problem there - but you will find that no-one will force your wife / partner if you have one, to wear a full-face veil if she does not wish so to do.
// why is it muslims when the come here can say what they like, do what they like, have have a doz wifes and a heard of children, preach hatred i a country that welcomes them with open arms, supports them with anything, then they thank us by trying to blow up up, //
That is something of a sweeping generalisation - the assumption that all Muslims who come here have a dozen wives and a 'herd' of children and thanks their host country by trying to blow it up.
It is of course as nonsensical as assuming that every British citizen that emigrates to a Muslim country insists on Sky TV and a care providing a full English breakfast on every corner is his right from the day he arrives.
// the burka or whatever you call this stupid thing could & has been a shield to disguise a terrorist, //
Indeed it has - but the Kray twins were never seen without a smart suit with a shirt and tie - should we ban those as well?
// a total ban, if you don't like the law feck off. //
The ban is unreasonable, draconian and oppressive, and without serious cultural foundation apart from an inherent media-fanned distrust of other cultural dress codes.
andy-hughes
What I am saying is that the automatic Western assumption that every Muslim woman wearing a veil is oppressed and forced to wear it is a false assumption based on a cultural difference.
______________________________________
What is the 'Western assumption' when it is at home?
And even if you know what the collective known as the 'Western assumption' is ... how do you know it 'assumes *every* Muslim woman wearing a veil is oppressed and forced to wear it is a false assumption based on a cultural difference.
?
What I am saying is that the automatic Western assumption that every Muslim woman wearing a veil is oppressed and forced to wear it is a false assumption based on a cultural difference.
______________________________________
What is the 'Western assumption' when it is at home?
And even if you know what the collective known as the 'Western assumption' is ... how do you know it 'assumes *every* Muslim woman wearing a veil is oppressed and forced to wear it is a false assumption based on a cultural difference.
?
The Burka is fine, although it is a public statement of an individual's religious proclivity. After all Christian notations of belief such as the wearing of a little cross on a gold chain are never banned are they? We seem to make a point on here that when abroad and in a foreign country, "we follow their laws and customs". Why would we not expect reciprocal consideration?
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