On Holocaust Memorial Day, Why Aren't The German People As A Whole Left With The Same Stigma That British And American People Are Over Slavery?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/11370854/Holocaust-Memorial-Day-survivors-return-to-Auschwitz.html

[sp1814]

naomi24

Whose asking for an apology?

I certainly am not.

However, I think that some people believe that slavery is something in the far distant past - well, of course it is...but the uncomfortable truth is that it informed attitudes in the minds of many Americans right up until the 60s (and beyond) in the U.S.

Think about it this way - when Cilla Black was singing 'Love of the Loved' in the Cavern Club, a black man could well be lynched in Alabama for kissing a white woman.

It's weird for us in the UK to acknowledge this, because our race history is very much skewed from America's - but it's there. It's history, and I personally see no advantage in looking away from it.

I actually don't think there is any value in anyone apologising for the actions of their forebears. It doesn't do anyone any good.

[naomi24]

//I actually don't think there is any value in anyone apologising for the actions of their forebears. It doesn't do anyone any good. //

Good. Then we agree.

[andy-hughes]

beso - "I have no time for the Holocaust Memorial Day when the glorious history of the Hebrews features so much genocide.

I am not saying that the Holocaust wasn't deplorable but the reality is that they wrote the script.

The similarity of the Hebrew invasion of "The Promised Land" and the Nazi action against them is one of the great ironies of history."

I think your logic is seriously flawed.

Which specific 'Hebrew invasion ..." are you referring to?

A small test of your argument is to place it in another context -

Because of the Crusaders' deplorable rampaging across the Holy Land in the twelfth century, they 'wrote the script', so we should not be at all dismayed that British soldiers died in the conflicts in Iraq in the last decade.

Does that sit well with you?

[sp1814]

naomi24

You wrote:

"but you're still banging on about apologies that are not going to erase history."

I have not banged on about apologies at all.

Please try not to ascribe statements to me that are inaccurate.

I have merely referred to acknowledgements.

Not apologies.

[andy-hughes]

Gromit - "We should not deny our past, but we shouldn't feel burdened by it either."

That statement resonates with me - extremely well put.

[Orderlimit]

"... but we shouldn't feel burdened by it either."

who is burdened by it and why ? (I'm not)

[naomi24]

sp, //I have merely referred to acknowledgements.

Not apologies. //

My apologies. You have acknowledgements. Now what do you want?

[-Talbot-]

Let's not forget the British or the Americans for that matter didn't invent slavery.

[sp1814]

naomi24

I have no idea why you are reacting with (what I am interpreting as) misplaced aggression.

First you accuse me of demanding apologies (which I obviously didn't), and now you seem to be figuratively tapping your feet waiting for my demands.

I am merely pointing out that in terms of the history of American race relations, slavery (as the Jim Crow laws prove) cast long shadows.

Shadows that reach right up to today.

There are people alive today who remember segregation. These are incredibly interesting stories.

Without knowing those stories, how can we begin to understand the driving forces behind the Civil Rights Movement?

This is all very recent history.

And it's all linked.

[andy-hughes]

Talbot - "Let's not forget the British or the Americans for that matter didn't invent slavery."

Not sure what your point is?

Not being the 'inventor' of a brutal system of behaviour does not excuse future prepetrators - otherwise, any murderer could call up the story of Cain and Abel in their mitigating circumstances.

[-Talbot-]

Can I ask this....
One thing that always puzzles me is why black Americans are refered to as African American even when they have never been to Africa and their parents have never been to Africa?
My black mates are English or British not British African

Anyone?

[RandyMarsh]

I feel no stigma, no one i know feels any stigma.

[sp1814]

-Talbot-

It's because black Americans are not the same people as black Britons.

It's quite common in the U.S. for ethnic communities to 'hyphenate'.

It's very common for example, to hear the phrase 'Italian American', but I have never once heard 'Italian-British'.

[naomi24]

sp, you’re right in a way, I am metaphorically tapping my feet waiting for your demands, but the tapping emanates from frustration rather than aggression. I know history casts long shadows, but I’m at a loss to know what you expect anyone to do about it. The laws you copied and pasted are no more, and yes, changes in attitude do take time, but acknowledgements have been forthcoming. I don’t know what else you want.

[mata hati]

The Jews weren't the only people who suffered in concentration camps - who ever remembers and commemorates the "others" ?

[-Talbot-]

But why. sp?
I can not see the benefit.

Surely they are now just Americans?

[sp1814]

naomi24

My point is that it is incorrect to think that slavery was abolished hundreds of years ago an was that...and it's equally false to think that the Jim Crow laws were abolished 50 years ago and that was that.

To understand exactly how we managed to get onto the A216, we need to retrace our route from the M4.

I am not saying that I expect anything other than acknowledgement...and acknowledgement is the acceptance that some very astonishing things happened in very recent history, and in certain parts of the U.S. attitudes to race are directly informed by those events.

[sp1814]

naomi24

You wrote:

"I don’t know what else you want."

I think what I want, is a sober discussion about the impact of slavery without anyone accusing me of wanting an apology or anything else.

That, for me, would be a fantastic start.

[sp1814]

-Talbot-

Yes, it's a weird one.

I have always assumed it's because America uniq

[sp1814]

(Damn you 'Submit' button)

I have always assumed it's because America unique in being such a young country, and a country which is made up largely of immigrants.

I've been all over the country, and the places where you find the 'hyphenates' are commonly in the more blue collar areas (especially New York and New Jersey).

Not so much Boston or California.

I dunno. I've always found it weird...however, whatever the ethnicity - there is always an overriding pride in being an American.