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Shooting Of A Black Teenager In Missouri Sparks Riots
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Disregarding why this teenager was shot, the police say one thing and a rapper says another.
What I wish to discuss here is the fact that whether in America or the UK it would seem that if a black person is deemed to be mistreated by the police, a wholesale riot takes place, along with more violence looting and damaging of property.
This never happens if a white person is killed by the police (or at least I can never remember such a thing) why?
Disregarding why this teenager was shot, the police say one thing and a rapper says another.
What I wish to discuss here is the fact that whether in America or the UK it would seem that if a black person is deemed to be mistreated by the police, a wholesale riot takes place, along with more violence looting and damaging of property.
This never happens if a white person is killed by the police (or at least I can never remember such a thing) why?
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Gromit
/// Of the 6 areas of rioting in 2011, 5 had mostly white people rioting. ///
Wrong Gromit out of the 6 areas, 3 had mostly white people arrested and prosecuted.
London : Whites 29% - Non whites 52%
West Midlands : Whites 34% - None Whites 52%
Greater Manchester : Whites 76% - None Whites 20%
Nottingham : Whites 36% - None Whites 58%
Merseyside : Whites 72% - None Whites 19%
Elsewhere : Whites 59% - None Whites 17%
/// Of the 6 areas of rioting in 2011, 5 had mostly white people rioting. ///
Wrong Gromit out of the 6 areas, 3 had mostly white people arrested and prosecuted.
London : Whites 29% - Non whites 52%
West Midlands : Whites 34% - None Whites 52%
Greater Manchester : Whites 76% - None Whites 20%
Nottingham : Whites 36% - None Whites 58%
Merseyside : Whites 72% - None Whites 19%
Elsewhere : Whites 59% - None Whites 17%
AOG
Regarding Gromit's statistics on the number of black people killed by the police in the US. Doesn't that suggest that black people do not automatically riot in these situations, and furthermore, don't the figures you posted at 13:10 further support the argument that riots in the UK are not divided up along along lines of race?
Or perhaps the Mark Duggan killing *does* prove your point. He was half white and half black, and looking at your figures overall 45% of those arrested and prosecuted were white.
Does that suggest that the white rioters were out there looting in support of the white half of Duggan's family.
If not...?
Regarding Gromit's statistics on the number of black people killed by the police in the US. Doesn't that suggest that black people do not automatically riot in these situations, and furthermore, don't the figures you posted at 13:10 further support the argument that riots in the UK are not divided up along along lines of race?
Or perhaps the Mark Duggan killing *does* prove your point. He was half white and half black, and looking at your figures overall 45% of those arrested and prosecuted were white.
Does that suggest that the white rioters were out there looting in support of the white half of Duggan's family.
If not...?
-- answer removed --
AOG
I think it's quite dangerous to assume that the white riots were only 'following the lead'.
But going back to your earlier question - does the fact that nearly half those arrested and convicted were white suggest that there may be another dimension to this, other than race?
Put another way - of all those arrested, how many had a place at university? How many had family members who had been in trouble with the police before? How many had a private education? How many had been arrested before.
By the way - does Gromit's figures from 11:19 allay your fears that the shooting of black suspects by white police officers doesn't automatically result in a riot?
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Which would suggest that there are other factors involved.
I think it's quite dangerous to assume that the white riots were only 'following the lead'.
But going back to your earlier question - does the fact that nearly half those arrested and convicted were white suggest that there may be another dimension to this, other than race?
Put another way - of all those arrested, how many had a place at university? How many had family members who had been in trouble with the police before? How many had a private education? How many had been arrested before.
By the way - does Gromit's figures from 11:19 allay your fears that the shooting of black suspects by white police officers doesn't automatically result in a riot?
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Which would suggest that there are other factors involved.
AOG
Earlier you wrote:
"I know some will not like me saying this, but could the reason be that black teenagers are more likely to respond more violently than white teenagers?"
You make a very good point there without knowing it.
Because of racial prejudice, black teenagers will be treated with suspicion compared to their white counterparts (see video).
I can imagine it must be quite awful to put up with that.
Earlier you wrote:
"I know some will not like me saying this, but could the reason be that black teenagers are more likely to respond more violently than white teenagers?"
You make a very good point there without knowing it.
Because of racial prejudice, black teenagers will be treated with suspicion compared to their white counterparts (see video).
I can imagine it must be quite awful to put up with that.
AOG
As a comparison...imagine if you as an elderly white male were treated with suspicion and questions from the police every time you walked past a children's playground (because Operation Yewtree had focussed our minds).
Even though those kinds of thoughts had never crossed your mind, would you not eventually become outraged that once a month, your pockets were searched and your phone camera examined for pictures of kiddies?
I believe that's what it must be like to be a black teenager in certain areas.
There are some who actually *do* believe they react more violently than their white counterparts...it's an awkward situation.
As a comparison...imagine if you as an elderly white male were treated with suspicion and questions from the police every time you walked past a children's playground (because Operation Yewtree had focussed our minds).
Even though those kinds of thoughts had never crossed your mind, would you not eventually become outraged that once a month, your pockets were searched and your phone camera examined for pictures of kiddies?
I believe that's what it must be like to be a black teenager in certain areas.
There are some who actually *do* believe they react more violently than their white counterparts...it's an awkward situation.
Because of racial prejudice, black teenagers will be treated with suspicion compared to their white counterparts (see video).
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To a degree. Sometimes though, you just have to tell it like it is:
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To a degree. Sometimes though, you just have to tell it like it is:
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There is an element in which this is a vicious circle, really. Historically people from different races have been treated with contempt, and while this is less so now than in the past it still looms large in some people's heads -- it's clear that more than a few people have chips on their shoulder. And then the vicious circle bit starts where, say, an action can be claimed to be racially motivated (even if it isn't) and then this gives people the excuse to behave badly; which in turn feeds suspicions that people of a different racial background can't be trusted, which might lead to more such incidents with racist overtones; until it barely takes a whisper to set people off either in crying "Racist!" or in wondering if this is an actual trend.
The reasons in reality are far more complicated than the colour of skin and could include upbringing or perhaps incidents in any particular person's past, and so on. Upbringing in particular is important -- while it isn't anything to do with racism itself, how much clearer can you be that what is said at home is important than when witnessing all those people who weren't even alive in 1990 celebrating the death of Thatcher as if she had wronged them personally? Or in the apparent cycle we sometimes see in Northern Ireland where the old generation tires of violence itself but manages to enrage the youth so that the cycle starts all over again?
Riots of this nature expose deep, deep issues within and between communities, how they are perceived by others, how they feel they are perceived, and how they react. Leave it long enough and the initial reasons for the distrust and hatred are forgotten, and there is only the hate and violence.
The reasons in reality are far more complicated than the colour of skin and could include upbringing or perhaps incidents in any particular person's past, and so on. Upbringing in particular is important -- while it isn't anything to do with racism itself, how much clearer can you be that what is said at home is important than when witnessing all those people who weren't even alive in 1990 celebrating the death of Thatcher as if she had wronged them personally? Or in the apparent cycle we sometimes see in Northern Ireland where the old generation tires of violence itself but manages to enrage the youth so that the cycle starts all over again?
Riots of this nature expose deep, deep issues within and between communities, how they are perceived by others, how they feel they are perceived, and how they react. Leave it long enough and the initial reasons for the distrust and hatred are forgotten, and there is only the hate and violence.
"What I wish to discuss here is the fact that whether in America or the UK it would seem that if a black person is deemed to be mistreated by the police, a wholesale riot takes place, along with more violence looting and damaging of property.
This never happens if a white person is killed by the police (or at least I can never remember such a thing) why"
Well according to some of my black friends who we had a similar conversation regarding this and other issues maybe because they're majority "White" countries with these countries being their home and with the black people never feeling being the minority ostracised /victimised/oppressed/repressed being put in crappy neighborhoods treated like a second citizen all their lives forced to sit on the back of buses forced to use different water fountains restaurants and schools and watched as their white counterparts were given all the best employment whilst they were turned away even when they were more qualified and that's IF they even got the chance in the first place add to that racism and racial profiling and judgement before anyone's even got to know them and then being the victims of police brutality and the list goes on and on. I't not surprising to see why they're angry and a powder keg ready to blow up as some think this was the apparent only way to be heard since their migration in the 60's and before as the news footage still viewed today proves.
Is this a reason to riot and destruct your own neighborhood and community then I'd have to say obviously not but i'm sure any psychologists or psychiatrists amongst you can tell us why people who have been pushed over the edge break what's near them immediately before breaking everything around them.
This never happens if a white person is killed by the police (or at least I can never remember such a thing) why"
Well according to some of my black friends who we had a similar conversation regarding this and other issues maybe because they're majority "White" countries with these countries being their home and with the black people never feeling being the minority ostracised /victimised/oppressed/repressed being put in crappy neighborhoods treated like a second citizen all their lives forced to sit on the back of buses forced to use different water fountains restaurants and schools and watched as their white counterparts were given all the best employment whilst they were turned away even when they were more qualified and that's IF they even got the chance in the first place add to that racism and racial profiling and judgement before anyone's even got to know them and then being the victims of police brutality and the list goes on and on. I't not surprising to see why they're angry and a powder keg ready to blow up as some think this was the apparent only way to be heard since their migration in the 60's and before as the news footage still viewed today proves.
Is this a reason to riot and destruct your own neighborhood and community then I'd have to say obviously not but i'm sure any psychologists or psychiatrists amongst you can tell us why people who have been pushed over the edge break what's near them immediately before breaking everything around them.
Chilldoubt
Absolutely - and I welcome any initiative which reduces criminal activity in the black community.
However, to "tell it like it is" leads to the assumption by some 'less sophisticated' people that this is "the truth" about black people, and reinforces their prejudices.
It can go from assuming that all black people like loud music, to thinking that they got where they are in life through 'positive discrimination' (something that has been suggested to me on AB a couple of times).
We all have prejudices - nobody is perfect. It's how we allow those prejudices to define the way we treat others that's really important.
Absolutely - and I welcome any initiative which reduces criminal activity in the black community.
However, to "tell it like it is" leads to the assumption by some 'less sophisticated' people that this is "the truth" about black people, and reinforces their prejudices.
It can go from assuming that all black people like loud music, to thinking that they got where they are in life through 'positive discrimination' (something that has been suggested to me on AB a couple of times).
We all have prejudices - nobody is perfect. It's how we allow those prejudices to define the way we treat others that's really important.
Chilldoubt
I have a question about your figures on mugging.
In areas which are predominately black, most of the muggings are carried out by black teenagers, right?
Are there also figures breaking down the race of muggers in say Glasgow, Cardiff and Aberdeen?
In areas which are predominately white, are there no muggings, or do the figures suggest something else?
I have a question about your figures on mugging.
In areas which are predominately black, most of the muggings are carried out by black teenagers, right?
Are there also figures breaking down the race of muggers in say Glasgow, Cardiff and Aberdeen?
In areas which are predominately white, are there no muggings, or do the figures suggest something else?
Chilldoubt
I'm afraid we may never know the figures for white on white muggings in predominately white areas.
The stats might be available, but the conclusions are more difficult to reach, because they would suggest something other than race (education, socio-economic influences) which don't fall into a nice easy to understand narrative.
I'm afraid we may never know the figures for white on white muggings in predominately white areas.
The stats might be available, but the conclusions are more difficult to reach, because they would suggest something other than race (education, socio-economic influences) which don't fall into a nice easy to understand narrative.
Chilldoubt
Really?
Very little white on white crime in Glasgow?
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Perhaps the police *should* set up a task force eh?
Really?
Very little white on white crime in Glasgow?
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Perhaps the police *should* set up a task force eh?
From your link sp:
Ch Supt Bob Hamilton, head of the licensing and violence reduction division for Police Scotland, raised questions over some of the analysis in the report.
He said: "Some of the statistics used in this report are not current and have been recorded, collated and analysed in different ways in each force area so it is difficult to make accurate comparisons."
Furthermore, what's the racial demographic/ethnicity of the perpetrators?
Ch Supt Bob Hamilton, head of the licensing and violence reduction division for Police Scotland, raised questions over some of the analysis in the report.
He said: "Some of the statistics used in this report are not current and have been recorded, collated and analysed in different ways in each force area so it is difficult to make accurate comparisons."
Furthermore, what's the racial demographic/ethnicity of the perpetrators?
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