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Does This Now Mean That Police Officers Will Now Think Twice Before Daring To Stop Black Motorists?
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It is reported that Mr Lawrence has been stopped on 25 occasions in 19 years, which isn't all that excessive in my opinion, especially when one takes into consideration that According to the IPCC report, 74 per cent of the police driver’s stops between September 2012 and March 2013 were on Afro-Caribbean people.
But then even those figures can be a little deceptive, especially if the patrol stoppages were carried out in a predominate black area.
No this seems to be a case where a high profile figure is using his position to attack the police, and the authorities have taken the decision to discipline just one sole police officer, in their attempt to be seen as having taken some action.
/// More than 20 other, unrelated allegations of racial discrimination – made against the Met by Mr Lawrence - were rejected by the IPCC. ///
It is reported that Mr Lawrence has been stopped on 25 occasions in 19 years, which isn't all that excessive in my opinion, especially when one takes into consideration that According to the IPCC report, 74 per cent of the police driver’s stops between September 2012 and March 2013 were on Afro-Caribbean people.
But then even those figures can be a little deceptive, especially if the patrol stoppages were carried out in a predominate black area.
No this seems to be a case where a high profile figure is using his position to attack the police, and the authorities have taken the decision to discipline just one sole police officer, in their attempt to be seen as having taken some action.
/// More than 20 other, unrelated allegations of racial discrimination – made against the Met by Mr Lawrence - were rejected by the IPCC. ///
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OL, quite right too. What were you doing out and about in those circumstances ? I once got stopped by a patrol in Pimlico, quite late, acting suspiciously near my own car, and carrying a holdall. The officers found a wig and gown in it. Mind how you go,sir, sorry to trouble you!
Now, if the stops were like yours or mine, there might be no cause for concern. But I fear they aren't.
Now, if the stops were like yours or mine, there might be no cause for concern. But I fear they aren't.
I imagine the report spoke only of Afro-Caribbeans because Mr Lawrence is Afro-Caribbean and it would hardly suit his cause to speak of the black population as a whole. Further, when one is having a knife held to one's throat the precise ethnicity of one's assailant is probably not uppermost in one's mind. However, we're still getting bogged down with somewhat meaningless figures, TCL.
The percentage of the population which is black in an area like Peckham does not necessarily equate to the percentage of crime perpetrated by black people in that area. But in any case it does not matter. Policing is not a statistical exercise. The sooner people who sit behind comfortable desks realise that life is sometimes a bit harsh in these areas and that often somewhat unpallatable methods are required to solve problems the better it will be for all - including many black victims of black criminals.
The percentage of the population which is black in an area like Peckham does not necessarily equate to the percentage of crime perpetrated by black people in that area. But in any case it does not matter. Policing is not a statistical exercise. The sooner people who sit behind comfortable desks realise that life is sometimes a bit harsh in these areas and that often somewhat unpallatable methods are required to solve problems the better it will be for all - including many black victims of black criminals.
NEW JUDGE the figure of 74% was important enough for the IPCC to mention it in its report. I agree that policing is not a statistical exercise but without stats, how could you guarantee there was no discrimnation and that the resources were used to best effect?
As for having a knife to one's throat, does that happen a lot when cars are stopped?
As for having a knife to one's throat, does that happen a lot when cars are stopped?
“would you endorse a policy of stopping every youth in Cambridge or Dalston or Peckham…”
Yes Fred, if it curbed the activities of those who carry knives. Needs must.
“how could you guarantee there was no discrimnation…”
I could not. But that would not be my priority.
“… and that the resources were used to best effect?”
Discrimination and best use of resources are not necessarily related. Sometimes a bit of discrimination is needed to obtain the beat results. Once again, needs must. Unfortunate for the victims of such discrimination but not so life changing (or sometimes ending) as it is for victims of gun and knife crime.
“As for having a knife to one's throat, does that happen a lot when cars are stopped? “
No it does not, but many, many perpetrators of knife (and gun) crime are apprehended as a result of vehicle stops.
Have a roam round a place like Peckham late at night and see how you’d police the place effectively whilst treading on eggshells and being concerned about upsetting somebody or other. I wish you every success !!!
I don’t think I can contribute to this any more.
Yes Fred, if it curbed the activities of those who carry knives. Needs must.
“how could you guarantee there was no discrimnation…”
I could not. But that would not be my priority.
“… and that the resources were used to best effect?”
Discrimination and best use of resources are not necessarily related. Sometimes a bit of discrimination is needed to obtain the beat results. Once again, needs must. Unfortunate for the victims of such discrimination but not so life changing (or sometimes ending) as it is for victims of gun and knife crime.
“As for having a knife to one's throat, does that happen a lot when cars are stopped? “
No it does not, but many, many perpetrators of knife (and gun) crime are apprehended as a result of vehicle stops.
Have a roam round a place like Peckham late at night and see how you’d police the place effectively whilst treading on eggshells and being concerned about upsetting somebody or other. I wish you every success !!!
I don’t think I can contribute to this any more.
The reality is, there is very little discrimination in policing and that includes stop searches, arrest etc, but it does exist. The groups most discriminated by police are probably the Traveller and Gypsy communities, who are heavily targeted by patrols, but this doesn't seem to bother a lot of people, even though they could be classed as ethnic minority groups.
"It is reported that Mr Lawrence has been stopped on 25 occasions in 19 years, which isn't all that excessive in my opinion"
Everyone has an opinion...and your opinion on this is...surprising.
I've been driving since I was 28, and have been stopped twice...and on both occasions I was entirely at fault.
To be stopped more than twice a year though...that would seem excessive.
AOG - how many times have you been randomly pulled over by the police?
Everyone has an opinion...and your opinion on this is...surprising.
I've been driving since I was 28, and have been stopped twice...and on both occasions I was entirely at fault.
To be stopped more than twice a year though...that would seem excessive.
AOG - how many times have you been randomly pulled over by the police?
I am afraid those figures are also misleading SP. If an officer is almost certain that a person is carrying a prohibited item on them and it turns out to be positive and the person arrested, then this will be usually be recorded simply as an arrest where really it should have been recorded as a stop search. I am sure that if these were recorded correctly then the arrest rate would change somewhat, but even 9% is a hell of a lot arrest.
“In January 2012 the MPS introduced STOP IT a new approach to the use of stop and search in London. This brings a renewed focus on reducing violence leading to more arrests and weapons seizures. In addition, there is a greater emphasis on professionalism and intensive supervision of officers’ use of the powers”
Under stop and searches under PACE Section 1, black people are stopped and searched at 4 times the rate of white people across London. Asian people are stopped and searched at twice the rate of white people across London.
The rates of disproportionality are higher for exceptional stop and search powers in London: Black people are stopped and searched at 11 times the rate of white people under section 60. (2010-11 data). Asian people are stopped and searched at 4.5 times that of white people under section 60. (2010-11 data).
9% of stop and searches lead to an arrest.
2% of stop and searches conducted under Section 60 Criminal Justice & Public Order Act lead to an arrest.
Under stop and searches under PACE Section 1, black people are stopped and searched at 4 times the rate of white people across London. Asian people are stopped and searched at twice the rate of white people across London.
The rates of disproportionality are higher for exceptional stop and search powers in London: Black people are stopped and searched at 11 times the rate of white people under section 60. (2010-11 data). Asian people are stopped and searched at 4.5 times that of white people under section 60. (2010-11 data).
9% of stop and searches lead to an arrest.
2% of stop and searches conducted under Section 60 Criminal Justice & Public Order Act lead to an arrest.
Speaking as someone who does not indulge in the nation's favourite sport (fishing), I would like to ask those in the know whether a 1 in 10 success rate would be sufficient to make you keep revisiting the same spot on the canal/river/pondlake/shoreline or whether you'd seek more productive territory elsewhere?
Also, to borrow from the terminology used by fans of MMORPG games, are these 'areas' being used by the Met somewhat like a stat-padding gameserver?
Most jobs are competitive in nature; why not Policing too?
Also, to borrow from the terminology used by fans of MMORPG games, are these 'areas' being used by the Met somewhat like a stat-padding gameserver?
Most jobs are competitive in nature; why not Policing too?
Speaking as someone who does not indulge in Answerbanks favourite sport (bashing the police) and to borrow the same fatuous anology.
If I were a gillie paid to catch pike, I would cast again & again where I thought they might be lurking. And while I'd be delighted to catch one with every tenth cast it would be a dereliction of duty to give up if I wasn't happy.
I don't see anything wrong with targeting who gets stopped. I'm pretty confident that more young people get stopped than OAPs. Is it fair. No. Is it just common sense.Yes.
If I were a gillie paid to catch pike, I would cast again & again where I thought they might be lurking. And while I'd be delighted to catch one with every tenth cast it would be a dereliction of duty to give up if I wasn't happy.
I don't see anything wrong with targeting who gets stopped. I'm pretty confident that more young people get stopped than OAPs. Is it fair. No. Is it just common sense.Yes.
///I've been driving since I was 28, and have been stopped twice...and on both occasions I was entirely at fault.///
Sp. Have you considered the possibility you're a very good driver. And he isn't.
I would estimate I've been stopped at least 10 times, 20 if I include being a passenger. Do you think I've got a case.
Sp. Have you considered the possibility you're a very good driver. And he isn't.
I would estimate I've been stopped at least 10 times, 20 if I include being a passenger. Do you think I've got a case.
In July this year the IPPC completed a report into how the Met deals with allegations of racism and found that they are not dealing with complaints in a fair or robust way. They may have rejected these specific complaints by Mr. Lawrence, but clearly have other concerns and examples of bad practice when it come to the Met and racism.
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