Violence Breaks Out In Paris Over Burkha Ban

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2341113/Frances-burkha-ban-sparks-violence-Paris-police-try-arrest-woman-wearing-veil-pregnant-woman-attacked-covering-face.html

Whereas it was completely wrong for a pregnant woman to be attacked by two men, In a separate incident Was it right for the French police to be attacked by a mob of 60 for enforcing the French burkha ban?

[Epona]

no one is condoning the right of a male to subjugate his wife and daughters, frankly this happens in the West, albeit not as much. But what about the women who actually WANT to wear the Burkha, you are assuming all muslim women are mindless doormats. They should have the right to wear the Burkha just as a Christian person should have the right to wear a crucifix. I personally think its abhorrent, a terrible garment, but respect their right to wear whatever clothes they want in public.

[sandyRoe]

Governments trying to ban modes of dress is nothing new. Wasn' there a time when it was illegal to wear the plaid in Scotland?

[Zeuhl]

Surely the issue is not the Burqa as a garment of clothing

but is all about a face veil element

Our local bank doesn't have a 'dress code' for customers
but it does have an issue with people wearing a mask or a crash helmet

Personally, I would politely refuse to deal with anyone who was concealing their face from me

What style of clothes they are wearing (or not wearing) is none of my business

[Epona]

Zeuhl, absolutely right, this is the key issue, not being able to see the face. A shop or bank may put 'no balaclavas or bike helmets' on its door but would be prosecuted for putting 'no Burqas or veils'. Whats the solution?

[emmie]

Sandy yes, but that was centuries ago, and more for political reasons than anything. Whilst i understand the juxtaposition of feminism, the right to wear what you want, when you want, so one shouldn't be telling them what to wear, however it's become so much part of British life and especially in the capital. not just Muslim women having a spend up in Harrods. Our borough now has large pockets of immigrants, many are from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Somalia, and any number of African countries, where Islam has taken a hold and won't let go, now that has been translated to UK, and will only increase. Some seem to think that it's just scaremongering and that eventually those newer arrivals will blend in, well many of the older ones haven't. I am amazed when i go out now, particularly using public transport where English is rarely heard. That was unthinkable once upon a time.
Never mind when Scotland gets it's independence, perhaps we sassanachs can go there, i rather fancy the Highlands.

[Zeuhl]

i'm not sure it is a trouble-free solution

but i think it would be reasonable to introduce legislation requiring people to show their faces - unless there is a Health & Safety or Medical reason

It should be distanced from the burqa/muslim issue though people will of course say that is the real target - so be it.

But it should include face scarfs, extra large hoodies, balaclavas etc and if useful, present it as a 'Human Right'

As such, a core principle of everyone's right to be able to see the faces of those they interact with in public places or places of business

[naomi24]

Epona, //no one is condoning the right of a male to subjugate his wife and daughters, frankly this happens in the West, albeit not as much.//

Yes…I’m afraid you are condoning the right of a male to subjugate his wife and daughters. You freely admit that some women are treated in this shameful manner, but nevertheless you overlook their rights in favour of those who are already free to choose. It’s a fat lot of good bleating on about ‘what about those who want to wear it?’, when you blatantly ignore the plight of those who don’t want to, but are forced to! And don’t make assumptions about what I think of Muslim women – you know nothing about me and you have no idea what I think of Muslim women – and please don’t tell me to respect this appalling mode of dress – because I don’t and I never will. Not only are you doing these women no favours – their so-called ‘sisters’ are doing them no favours either!

Incidentally, it may have escaped your notice, but the crucifix does not visibly separate its wearer from the rest of society.

Zeuhl, that’s exactly right. No one cares if women choose to wear long dresses – I do it myself – but the burqa covers the face - and very effectively separates the wearer from society - and that is the problem.

[emmie]

whilst we are, and never let it be said i don't like a good old soundbite, bending over backwards, to accommodate our newly arrived, some are taking the proverbial, with attacks on liberty, for women, for freedom and for the things we hold true and dear. If you don't think that some who have come to these shores, haven't turned the heads of young impressionable males, and indeed females with skewed ideology and the role of men and women. Take a look at what some schools, universities are facing, and please explain to me why there is a need for an Islamic school, or a Sikh school for that matter, what is wrong with just a school. If you want integration then that means all making an effort.
NJ put this rather well about translating documents into myriad languages, that is you go to Spain and can't speak the language you will be told to get an interpreter, and pay, so why don't we do the same here.

[emmie]

epona the one thing that is also missing is that many of the women may have been married in Sharla law, which has no legality in UK, so she has no rights to divorce or to escape a dire situation, except by that same Sharia law, perhaps if that was stopped and all people had to go through a marriage, or civil ceremony according to this countries laws, then they have a deal more protection.

[Epona]

Naomi, there is no need to go off on one with me this is AB not the House of Commons. What Muslims do in their own relationships and family lives is of little importance to me, its up to the Muslim people to sort themselves out if they want to not for me to spout forth Women's Lib to women who may not even want liberating.

[Epona]

em10 I totally agree there are a lot of things in the Muslim faith that sit heavy with Westerners. They choose to live their lives in this way and like you say the only way to change them is to legislate against Shari law and the Burqa -this will never happen.

[emmie]

epona, i am not defending anyone on AB, each to his own, but i believe Naomi has a serious point to make, and some in the UK, forget AB for the minute are not taking the matter seriously.

[Brenden]

It is important epona, not in my generation or probably the next but how would you feel if the wearing of the burkha becomes compulsory in this country - it could happen.

[emmie]

perhaps it should, no one needs reminding how backwards many of their ideologies are, you only have to look at Saudi for that.

[emmie]

Brenden, it could, it's not useless scaremongering, once a community, people have a loud and big enough voice, especially in politics, it doesn't take much to get things changed. I despise the fact that some uni's have not stomped on the heads of anyone using their halls for their own ends, for denigrating women by telling them they will sit at the back of the hall when debating, separation of the sexes, for that is the way they believe it should be.
This has nothing to do with feminism, is has everything to do with equal rights, which have been a long time coming, been very costly to women overall, and now we have some degree of parity, some in our society think it shouldn't be that way and are actively ignoring those laws, rules.

[1ndex]

this will remove burkhas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLN7PBIdRsM

[Epona]

// It is important epona, not in my generation or probably the next but how would you feel if the wearing of the burkha becomes compulsory in this country - it could happen.//

This would never happen in the UK, the more the Muslims push for the right to practice their culture in the UK the more the UK people will retaliate.

[FredPuli43]

Since the wearing of the burka or the niqab is not a practice of most Muslims, it is even less likely to be enforced by this imagined Muslim takeover than other feared changes

[emmie]

Fred, sorry to deflate you but many women in our area wear the burkha, and veil, the same as i said before, in large pockets of the capital.
I had reason to visit the east end the other week, and it's like a different world, not the way it;s portrayed in the programme at all. It had been a while since i was last there, but its a scene more reminiscent of Islamabad,
Finsbury park the same, and no i am not just rattling off small areas, this is London wide. And as we know it's not just in the capital, Bradford, Salford, Luton, see the same scenes. Britain has changed, and it's only going to get more disparate people.

[emmie]

shows you that it isn't just here.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://images.alarabiya.net/burqa_ban_10528_9032.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/04/12/145114.html&h=266&;w=399&sz=44&tbnid=71gNbXrX-iRjxM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=138&zoom=1&usg=__KUbIHicwdH52CUMpQsr4csKTb4M=&docid=xhXuu0rS0_KwjM&sa=X&ei=mTS7UfuiI8H2O8idgOAM&ved=0CFEQ9QEwCQ&;dur=588