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Welcome to President Blair's safer world.
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I posted a message of sympathy on the message just above this one... I can only reiterate it here. Regardless of our own individual opinions on the matter, we as Americans share your pain and suffering at this time. As in the years past, we need to draw together and defeat this menace. I'm reminded that one of Britains greatest leaders at one of the darkest times in her history was Winston Churchill. For all of his greatness and leadership, he was soundly defeated when standing for re-election following the war. I say this only to submit that true leadership is often fleeting and fits the moment at hand. Bush and Blair have formed the usual alliance expected between our two diverse nations displayed over the centuries and they are having an effect on history that won't be fully realized for many years to come. At this moment, at least, we need to support them and keep our eye on the prize....
what do u mean by common place dogsbody? i havent heard of any single terroist attack from al queda in britain? this as far as i know is the first planned attack! So how is our governement causing us to be attacked commonplace? this is the same as when USA was attacked 9/11. and Madrid last year! It is a first attack and not a commonplace thing.
Oh and can i just say that my understanding is that IRA attacked britain cos we occupied a small section of there land years and years ago? whats the difference to that and iraq?
apart from the terrible human suffering these attacks cause it also strikes at the heart of what I value most in this country, our freedom to speak out and voice our opinions without persecution. and the fact that I can walk around this beautiful country and mix with people from all around the world without barriers of religion or culture. dogsbody has a right to word his question however he likes, it's only an opinion after all.
but I disagree with you dogsbody, i don't think it matters who is in power today, this goes much deeper than Iraq. I also don't link it to Muslims. This is fanatacism.
good debate - will add my two cents/pence - basically i agree with justineo - this is fanaticism. what irks me as an American and citizen of this world (currently living in London - thankfully we drove to work this morning and the 8 pound congestion charge was our only gripe) is when politicians like Bush (won't include Blair in this tirade as i think he falls far below Bush on the "evil" scale) USE events like this to muddle the issues (connecting 9/11 to Saddam when there is no viable link) for their own political gain. at times like this we need HONEST discussion about the real issues at hand and TRANSPARENCY from our politicans. i appreciate clanad's comments but as a fellow american i also felt a twinge as i read them coz it was like hearing the canned responses/commentary we are given by our politicians in "moments like these". unfortunately, terrorism brings us together for the wrong reasons, what we really need now is honest and sensible debate and our leaders to - instead of scaring us ****less - offer us hope and real solutions.
oh come on, dogsbody, do you honestly think that if we hadn't invaded iraq, osama bin laden and al-qaeda would just have gone quietly into the night after 9/11, never to be heard from again? As if.
They don't need a reason, they just need some excuses. If we hadn't invaded Iraq they would just have picked something else to pin their flag to. Maybe the West getting involved in 'Islamic' issues like stonings and rapes, or France prohibiting religious dress in schools.
metagirl, very well said. I agree entirely with your post except for one little point. I put Blair right next to your president on the scale you describe. One was open about it the other hid behind lies and half truths.
Zen, �300 cards will not stop this kind of atrocity. A �3 billion police force cannot stop this atrocity. The problems of this world have to be resoloved before this will go away. There has to be equality in other parts of the world, there has to be solutions to long standing problems before this will go away. sad sad day.....but this sadness has been around for far too long...in far away places and hence we never thought about it. Now it comes on our doorstep.
Dogsbody since when have terrorists ever stopped or needed a reason to maim and murder..! if the democratic world never did a thing to them they would still be intent to carry out these outrages...they are fanatics and maniacs pure and simple dogsbody, anyway i'll end there, its been a very sad day for many people and i just like to echo the thoughts of others and send my condolences to the victims families....
Luckyboy...if you are not aware of the reasons why the terrorists have been carrying out atrocities against others for such a long time you have a lot of learning to do. They are not in it for fun. Do you not know why the IRA killed and maimed, do you not know why the Tamil tigers started suicide bombings, do you need anyone to tell you what happend in kashmir, palestine, iraq. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. I dont support these violent methods but the ignorance that is shown here is shocking.
This is a Great nation and today proved it. I have always belived that Iraq wa right no matter how dubious. Hussein killed over a millon of his own people.
As long as there are appeasers it will never be a safer world. As long as there are people who will not see the truth it will never be safer.
If we had never invaded Iraq we would still be at risk or have you forgotten who coined the phrase great Satan
Religion has blood on its hands today. That moment, that split second, when you take the fundamental option away from reason towards 'a deep down inexplicable feeling' and then choose to propagate it, that's when you create a world when anyone can do the same thing. This idea will be bemoaned by those who say 'Oh but we don't belong to a religion which kills people'. Think again. A few hundred years ago it was Christians going in and slaughtering them in their streets.
The real injustice? Its to the rights of free thinkers who try to live at peace and have to live in a world where religious types carry out their tribal atrocities in our streets.
Dom tuk one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, don't tell me i don't understand or comprehend issues like the israeli/palestine issue or the basque seperatists and the unionist/republican conflict in northern ireland for instance.. or the kashmir dispute, i was just making the point that since when have the likes of bin laden waited for the iraq war before launching suicide attacks..don't twist my posts to suit your i blame bush/ blair agenda...if life was that simple.
these groups have killed far more muslims than they have killed westerners that is a fact. as is that they are fanatics and murderers and fascists or don't you agree with that...thats not ignorance that is the truth..
Today is not about whether or not Blair is a good Prime Minister or Bush a good President. Today is about 37 people (and it may well yet be more) who said goodbye to their wives, husbands, parents or children this morning, set out to go to work, and won't ever be going home again.
This is NOT the time for cheap political points scoring.
This is NOT the time for cheap political points scoring.
dogsbody's comment is poorly worded and the timing is by no means great, but the point is there none the less.
Exactly this time last year I went to London for two meetings and travelled from Waterloo, to Canary Wharf, to Bank, to Holborn, and back to Waterloo.
The weather was great and the transport was fine. I just remeber feeling so incredibly vulnerable.
Perhaps I am naive (in light of all the criticism), but I thought d0gsb0dy's comment was a valid one.
I have no point scoring to do. I did not vote for Blair (and am heavily opposed to the ID card system... THAT would be a stupid, waste of time/money... *if* these acts are perpetrated by individuals who have a legitimate right to hold a card, how would it help to stamp out terrorism? - another thread, though) but when I look at other countries, their leaders and their behaviour, I count myself very lucky to be British - regardless of who is in power, to be honest.
I saw d0gsb0dy's comment as being full of anger and frustration at what has happened. In this country we have the right to put forward our opinions, to discuss and explore issues. All opinions are valid whether or not we agree with them.
I tried, for several hours yesterday, to get hold of 2 friends who would have been on the Tubes at the times of the explosions, but was unable to until very late. They are injured but alive. These events have sickened me, and no doubt, much of the country, too.
Still feels a bit surreal. Can't believe it actually took place on the good ol' tube.
I was down for an interview recently and walked past Russell square, I remember being quite struck by just how beautiful that part of London is. B***rds.
Not entirely sure why dogsbody is coming under attack, seems perfectly natural to ask broader questions at a time like this,and is not inconsistent (even is congruent?) with grief.
