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Scottish Vote
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if the vote is yes for independence will we need a passport to visit Scotland
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http://www.i
12:25 Mon 25th Aug 2014
An interesting article Amphilogiai,but the main thrust of this opposition is coming from the Spaniard,who is looking over his shoulder concerning his problems with the Basques.
Just another anti "Yes" sally by the English press. I wonder why they are so concerned at the possibility of losing Scotland. Could it be self interest?
I still think that the vote of the Scots will be "no" in September.
Just another anti "Yes" sally by the English press. I wonder why they are so concerned at the possibility of losing Scotland. Could it be self interest?
I still think that the vote of the Scots will be "no" in September.
More importantly will the Scots need a passport to visit England?
In normal circumstances anyone arriving from a foreign country (including other EU states because, thankfully, the UK is not party to the preposterous Schengen agreement) needs a passport. (Unless, that is, you arrive in a shipping container from Belgium or a refrigerated lorry from France. Then you're given free medical treatment, accommodation and are fed and watered until your asylum application is processed and agreed). However, in the (agreed unlikely) event of Scottish Independence there are bound to be "transitional arrangements" which allow people from Scotland to board the 10am Virgin Pendolino from Glasgow Central to Euston without let or hindrance. Theses arrangements will doubtless last an extremely long time and the worry is that if Scotland becomes an EU member in its own right (again, very unlikely) they will become part of the Schengen area (they will have no choice). This means they will have open borders with the rest of that area (most of mainland Europe) and be open to allcomers from the continent. So long as the "transitional arrangements" are still in place (and they will probably last indefinitely because of Scotland's "special relationship" with England) these allcomers will also be allowed onto the 10am Glasgow to Euston Pendolino without let or hindrance.
Unintended (or unthought-of, or more likely uncared about) consequences rear their head. But I suppose at least it will cure the problem that Calais currently suffers.
In normal circumstances anyone arriving from a foreign country (including other EU states because, thankfully, the UK is not party to the preposterous Schengen agreement) needs a passport. (Unless, that is, you arrive in a shipping container from Belgium or a refrigerated lorry from France. Then you're given free medical treatment, accommodation and are fed and watered until your asylum application is processed and agreed). However, in the (agreed unlikely) event of Scottish Independence there are bound to be "transitional arrangements" which allow people from Scotland to board the 10am Virgin Pendolino from Glasgow Central to Euston without let or hindrance. Theses arrangements will doubtless last an extremely long time and the worry is that if Scotland becomes an EU member in its own right (again, very unlikely) they will become part of the Schengen area (they will have no choice). This means they will have open borders with the rest of that area (most of mainland Europe) and be open to allcomers from the continent. So long as the "transitional arrangements" are still in place (and they will probably last indefinitely because of Scotland's "special relationship" with England) these allcomers will also be allowed onto the 10am Glasgow to Euston Pendolino without let or hindrance.
Unintended (or unthought-of, or more likely uncared about) consequences rear their head. But I suppose at least it will cure the problem that Calais currently suffers.
-- answer removed --
// ..to board the 10am Virgin Pendolino from Glasgow Central to Euston without let or hindrance. //
the railways is one area that mr salmond et-al have not even thought about, presumably because there are many more pressingly immediate matters that need their attention. the franchising of long distance services only occurs in the UK, and there are no cross-border franchise models anywhere in Europe. If the 10am virgin pendolino is to continue operating, it will require the Scottish government to be happy for Westminster to continue choosing the franchise supplier (of another sovereign state); if they are, the current cross subsidy of the Scottish services by virgin's Manchester operation would likely end, resulting in a more expensive journey from Glasgow. Scotland could decide to franchise their own duplicate service, but there's insufficient business to support two operators on the London-Scotland route. or it might become necessary to change at Carlisle. this would be regardless of any border arrangements that may or may not be imposed.
the railways is one area that mr salmond et-al have not even thought about, presumably because there are many more pressingly immediate matters that need their attention. the franchising of long distance services only occurs in the UK, and there are no cross-border franchise models anywhere in Europe. If the 10am virgin pendolino is to continue operating, it will require the Scottish government to be happy for Westminster to continue choosing the franchise supplier (of another sovereign state); if they are, the current cross subsidy of the Scottish services by virgin's Manchester operation would likely end, resulting in a more expensive journey from Glasgow. Scotland could decide to franchise their own duplicate service, but there's insufficient business to support two operators on the London-Scotland route. or it might become necessary to change at Carlisle. this would be regardless of any border arrangements that may or may not be imposed.
It's not a question of importance, anne, it's a question of border control.
If events pan out as I have described (i.e. an independent Scotland joins the EU but border arrangements between Scotland and England remain non-existent) England will effectively become part of the Schengen area by stealth. That may be part of the Grand Plan, but it’s not something I’d like to see and not something I suppose too many people have thought of. That's why the question of border control with Scotland is important - not because of the Scots moving between the two countries but because Scotland will effectively have an uncontrolled border with the rest of Europe.
If events pan out as I have described (i.e. an independent Scotland joins the EU but border arrangements between Scotland and England remain non-existent) England will effectively become part of the Schengen area by stealth. That may be part of the Grand Plan, but it’s not something I’d like to see and not something I suppose too many people have thought of. That's why the question of border control with Scotland is important - not because of the Scots moving between the two countries but because Scotland will effectively have an uncontrolled border with the rest of Europe.
It's about time we subscribed to the Agreement, so that solves the problem. A member state still retains the right to stop and search at their national borders.....look at all the border stations still in place, though hardly used it must be said, other than for the police to have a smoke or a shag.....
The border stations in the Schengen area are non existent, DT. But those between the UK and elsewhere most certainly are not.
One of the principle reasons why large numbers of illegal immigrants are gathered at French and Belgian channel ports is because of the borderless situation in mainland Europe. Very few of them reach France or Belgium as their first "safe country" but they are able to make their way across Europe from convenient landing points without any trouble. None of the Schengen members seem intent on "stopping and searching" too many of them as they cross borders (in fact the agreement makes that very difficult). You don't really believe that the UK would maintain its border patrols in places such as Calais if we had been party do the agreement, do you?
The two crowning achievements of the EU are the single currency and the free movement of people. The two things that people in the UK have to be grateful for is that we did not join the euro and we did not sign up to the Schengen agreement.
One of the principle reasons why large numbers of illegal immigrants are gathered at French and Belgian channel ports is because of the borderless situation in mainland Europe. Very few of them reach France or Belgium as their first "safe country" but they are able to make their way across Europe from convenient landing points without any trouble. None of the Schengen members seem intent on "stopping and searching" too many of them as they cross borders (in fact the agreement makes that very difficult). You don't really believe that the UK would maintain its border patrols in places such as Calais if we had been party do the agreement, do you?
The two crowning achievements of the EU are the single currency and the free movement of people. The two things that people in the UK have to be grateful for is that we did not join the euro and we did not sign up to the Schengen agreement.
No, black_cat, everybody in the UK.
Anybody who thinks we would be better of had we joined the euro needs their bumps felt (if not, please explain how we would be better off). Anybody who believes we would be better off with unrestricted borders with mainland Europe probably also believes that we would be better off by allowing anybody who wants to to land on these shores to do so. Am I alone in thinking that we would not be better off in such a situation? Probably not.
Anybody who thinks we would be better of had we joined the euro needs their bumps felt (if not, please explain how we would be better off). Anybody who believes we would be better off with unrestricted borders with mainland Europe probably also believes that we would be better off by allowing anybody who wants to to land on these shores to do so. Am I alone in thinking that we would not be better off in such a situation? Probably not.
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