ChatterBank0 min ago
Refused Toilet Access - slightly different circumstances
66 Answers
Good Day! I generally understand how a merchant has every right to refuse access to their toilet facilities to a customer.
However, I'm hoping someone with a legal background may be able to take into consideration some additional circumstances:
My elderly father went for an eye exam at a High Street optician...just in fairness I considered whether it would be fair to name them. It was Vision Express!
During his eye exam he was asked what medications, if any, was he taking. Along with his anti-hypertensives he was just starting a rather strong diuretic. As he described it to me it has an effect to place one into a state of almost panic with the urgent/desperate need to immediately urinate.
He tells me that whilst undergoing his medical history with the ophthalmologist he told her the names of each medication and even alluded to the fact her needed to go but would endure.
The exam took much longer than anticipated as he needed to have some extended tests involving prisms ...(I'm pretty sure that's what he called it).
He had selected his frames before the eye exam and when he came out of the exam he was directed to a chair to have the frames sorted. He explained we was pleased but he needed visit the loo.
He says the manager told him, with a rather syrupy smile, that he wasn't permitted to use the loo. My father asked, rather excitedly why? The woman told him it was due to that ever-elusive and despised phrase we've adapted in this country called 'Health and Safety.' My father quickly retorted there was indeed going to be a health AND safety problem if he didn't go to the loo then!
'No, I'm sorry, you'll have to go elsewhere, I think the toilets may still be open further down the High Street,' She told him. (It was already dark so I doubt it.)
My father left instantly.
Sadly, his endeavours failed. My father is a kind, warm, and ever-so dignified gentleman who is incapable of saying anything demeaning about anyone! He was mortified, humiliated, and exasperated. He phoned me in distress, asking that I come immediately to collect him. He could not go inside anywhere and was standing outdoors in the cold as he waited the twenty minutes for me to drive to him.
Out of frustration and mortification he refuses to go back to buy his glasses from them, which I certainly understand. But he's also compelled to go back to collect his prescription so he can take it elsewhere.
I'm heartbroken for him. I can't imagine anyone being so callus and dismissive of his plea. Yet this soulless, gutless individual didn't give sweet fanny adams about his well-being. I think their behaviour is despicable, regardless of whatever absurd EU mandate our nation has fallen afoul of. It certainly isn't the Britain I know!
This clearly wasn't a 'personal injury' and if we were to phone one of those ambulance chasing places that bombard us with their stupid pleas about using the wrong ladder, having a ding a year ago, or whatever, we'd be laughed off of the phone.
So I'm not certain whether there is anything we can do at all other than name and shame these disgusting people.
I'd be grateful for any advice you might be able to offer.
Thanks!
FT+
However, I'm hoping someone with a legal background may be able to take into consideration some additional circumstances:
My elderly father went for an eye exam at a High Street optician...just in fairness I considered whether it would be fair to name them. It was Vision Express!
During his eye exam he was asked what medications, if any, was he taking. Along with his anti-hypertensives he was just starting a rather strong diuretic. As he described it to me it has an effect to place one into a state of almost panic with the urgent/desperate need to immediately urinate.
He tells me that whilst undergoing his medical history with the ophthalmologist he told her the names of each medication and even alluded to the fact her needed to go but would endure.
The exam took much longer than anticipated as he needed to have some extended tests involving prisms ...(I'm pretty sure that's what he called it).
He had selected his frames before the eye exam and when he came out of the exam he was directed to a chair to have the frames sorted. He explained we was pleased but he needed visit the loo.
He says the manager told him, with a rather syrupy smile, that he wasn't permitted to use the loo. My father asked, rather excitedly why? The woman told him it was due to that ever-elusive and despised phrase we've adapted in this country called 'Health and Safety.' My father quickly retorted there was indeed going to be a health AND safety problem if he didn't go to the loo then!
'No, I'm sorry, you'll have to go elsewhere, I think the toilets may still be open further down the High Street,' She told him. (It was already dark so I doubt it.)
My father left instantly.
Sadly, his endeavours failed. My father is a kind, warm, and ever-so dignified gentleman who is incapable of saying anything demeaning about anyone! He was mortified, humiliated, and exasperated. He phoned me in distress, asking that I come immediately to collect him. He could not go inside anywhere and was standing outdoors in the cold as he waited the twenty minutes for me to drive to him.
Out of frustration and mortification he refuses to go back to buy his glasses from them, which I certainly understand. But he's also compelled to go back to collect his prescription so he can take it elsewhere.
I'm heartbroken for him. I can't imagine anyone being so callus and dismissive of his plea. Yet this soulless, gutless individual didn't give sweet fanny adams about his well-being. I think their behaviour is despicable, regardless of whatever absurd EU mandate our nation has fallen afoul of. It certainly isn't the Britain I know!
This clearly wasn't a 'personal injury' and if we were to phone one of those ambulance chasing places that bombard us with their stupid pleas about using the wrong ladder, having a ding a year ago, or whatever, we'd be laughed off of the phone.
So I'm not certain whether there is anything we can do at all other than name and shame these disgusting people.
I'd be grateful for any advice you might be able to offer.
Thanks!
FT+
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FT has already stated that the exam was a good deal longer than his father expected it to be-so visiting a loo beforehand was most likely something he di *at home8-before his appointment...and he probably assumed that would be adequate. If the *effects* of the medication was new to him-he may not have been able to gauge just how pressing the need to go go would be. And-as a gentleman of a certain age-the necessity to go may have been that much more difficult to cope with. He *did* attempt to get across-subtly-the point that ne was getting into discomfort. Also-if the public toilets were already closed-which in most places they would be by nightfall...what choice did he have?
Just a few observations....
Just a few observations....
Bednob, apologies, originally I tried to shorten all the headernames, simply for that purpose - to make them shorter.
Clearly, I did not express myself clearly: My father was told to go somewhere else. He knew there used to be public toilets in our town - in this case it would be approximately 400-500 metres (not feet) away. - hardly a brief jaunt for an elderly man in the rain on a dark night. Secondly, should he have made it he would have discovered that the toilets were closed. I checked that. The woman at the shop, which by the way is a franchise and not a corporate location, ( I checked that too to determine whether this might be a blanket mandate. The woman really didn't care where he went as long as it wasn't there.
Indeed, the old man could have jumped up from his exam chair and interrupted the exam. Now, he hasn't said this directly, but I'm guessing as I have a fairly good understanding of my father's mindset - he either simply endured, having the reasonable belief that he would be able to relieve himself once he left that chair, or his being still had not yet caused the urgent manifestation of his urge to void. He HAS alluded to this, but he has only been taking these new diuretics for several days. He has heretofore not been in a position of being incontinent - ever!
I have not judged any of your comments - they are just as valid as anyone else's here. And whilst I may and do find them to be rather coldly discounting, and rather insensitive, I respect your absolute right to state your opinion. I'm equally entitled to my own and due the same respect.
These comments shared herein provide perspectives and they are important for a civilised society. My belief that this medical merchant's behaviour is untenable is my belief. Anyone who disagrees has every right to do so and to say so. There will never be a time from my end where I would suggest that they are resolutely wrong. The toilet was next to him, the medical condition had been presented and acknowledged, the duty-of-care certainly non-existent in this case, but the absence of that simple word called compassion was non-existent as well. I wish you every success in your youth.
FT
Clearly, I did not express myself clearly: My father was told to go somewhere else. He knew there used to be public toilets in our town - in this case it would be approximately 400-500 metres (not feet) away. - hardly a brief jaunt for an elderly man in the rain on a dark night. Secondly, should he have made it he would have discovered that the toilets were closed. I checked that. The woman at the shop, which by the way is a franchise and not a corporate location, ( I checked that too to determine whether this might be a blanket mandate. The woman really didn't care where he went as long as it wasn't there.
Indeed, the old man could have jumped up from his exam chair and interrupted the exam. Now, he hasn't said this directly, but I'm guessing as I have a fairly good understanding of my father's mindset - he either simply endured, having the reasonable belief that he would be able to relieve himself once he left that chair, or his being still had not yet caused the urgent manifestation of his urge to void. He HAS alluded to this, but he has only been taking these new diuretics for several days. He has heretofore not been in a position of being incontinent - ever!
I have not judged any of your comments - they are just as valid as anyone else's here. And whilst I may and do find them to be rather coldly discounting, and rather insensitive, I respect your absolute right to state your opinion. I'm equally entitled to my own and due the same respect.
These comments shared herein provide perspectives and they are important for a civilised society. My belief that this medical merchant's behaviour is untenable is my belief. Anyone who disagrees has every right to do so and to say so. There will never be a time from my end where I would suggest that they are resolutely wrong. The toilet was next to him, the medical condition had been presented and acknowledged, the duty-of-care certainly non-existent in this case, but the absence of that simple word called compassion was non-existent as well. I wish you every success in your youth.
FT
I kind of agree with Bednobs here. When there was no public toilet in my work we were constantly being asked if customers could use the staff toilet as they were 'desperate/ on medication/ pregnant' and if we relented the toilets were sometimes left in a dreadful state, so we stopped allowing anyone. Also, mr mac was on diuretics when his kidneys were failing and I understand the urgency, but it might be an idea for your dad to do as he did and find out every toilet he could use in town and plan all his trips accordingly.
I suspect our small town is quite similar to so many across our great nation - disappearing are the pubs, the independent merchants, and bakeries. To the left of the optician, as far as the eye can see and the imagination can stretch is a mind-numbing assortment of charity shops, estate agents, funeral home and a linen shop, to the other direction, heading towards the loos are four banks, three more charity shops, a green grocer, a health shop, and a post office - all of which were closed. I didn't ask, but I know my father would have not had the least of hesitancy to go into the funeral home as they served us when my mother died, but they too were closed. His mind in fully intact - and then some, I'm certain he considered everything except the chance of being told he could not use a toilet that was directly across from the exam room from which he had just exited. This event was an emergency. It was unplanned, un-anticipated, but prepared for to the extent he was in good nick in advance of his unexpected long-stay at the opticians. Also unexpected, regardless of how many times a non-customer may have been refused access to this merchant's toilets - I feel strongly that he, or anyone else for that matter, might have been given even a scintilla of compassion considering all the facts.
This experience tonight has been valuable to me. The perspectives shared provide a glimpse at the disparity in presumptions of an earlier society and ours today - even the comment (and a valid one) about people who have been granted that courtesy of using a toilet, who callously either destroyed it or left it in an unusable condition to the expense of others emphasises that powerful paradigm shift in society. If not entirely already, my father's world will soon pass, as will he, and we who make our contributions here with the comfort of our anonymity will prevail. I can only imagine what our perspectives will be when we reach the age where we become the marginalised, discounted, and redundant?
To all of you, thank you again!
FT
This experience tonight has been valuable to me. The perspectives shared provide a glimpse at the disparity in presumptions of an earlier society and ours today - even the comment (and a valid one) about people who have been granted that courtesy of using a toilet, who callously either destroyed it or left it in an unusable condition to the expense of others emphasises that powerful paradigm shift in society. If not entirely already, my father's world will soon pass, as will he, and we who make our contributions here with the comfort of our anonymity will prevail. I can only imagine what our perspectives will be when we reach the age where we become the marginalised, discounted, and redundant?
To all of you, thank you again!
FT
I too am disgusted that towns are losing their toilets! B+Q have no toilets either I found out when asked to use them after having bladder trouble a couple of years back. Our local library had a lovely little toilet one could use untill a customer happen to steal a librarians handbag while using the loo. Scumbag.
I feel so sorry for your dads plight ! x
I feel so sorry for your dads plight ! x
Starbuck and Puss, thank you for your kind words..
I’ve obviously chewed on this a great deal tonight. Whether it had been my father or not the circumstance still reeks of a foul odour. My father faithfully and dutifully follows his GP’s instruction – perhaps again part of our old world. I doubt he really has the option of deciding that today I must eat, ergo I must go to the shops, ergo I must not take any tablets. It’s a choice as simple as many of our elderly face today in their ‘alone-ness.’ I’m hungry and I’m freezing, which need shall I satisfy today? Note that we don’t even include the concept of lonely in this equation.
We all need models of how to live. But we also need to know how to finish well. Each of us has a responsibility to help our elderly finish their lives with dignity and reverence. It’s a fact that the bulk of our nation are incapable of even conceiving the sacrifices many of them made in order for us to enjoy the freedoms we use and abuse each and every day. So beyond pension schemes and Meals on Wheels, respect and honour will go a long way in helping to achieve it.
Unfortunately however, everyone involved, or not involved in this case, forgot to realise that there was a human life in the equation; a frightened, vulnerable, and perhaps momentarily lost individual who desperately needed something that job descriptions, manuals, government grants, and slick, well-oiled charity campaigns simply didn’t provide - demonstrable human compassion.
I live in hope that each of you is never placed in such a position.
FT
I’ve obviously chewed on this a great deal tonight. Whether it had been my father or not the circumstance still reeks of a foul odour. My father faithfully and dutifully follows his GP’s instruction – perhaps again part of our old world. I doubt he really has the option of deciding that today I must eat, ergo I must go to the shops, ergo I must not take any tablets. It’s a choice as simple as many of our elderly face today in their ‘alone-ness.’ I’m hungry and I’m freezing, which need shall I satisfy today? Note that we don’t even include the concept of lonely in this equation.
We all need models of how to live. But we also need to know how to finish well. Each of us has a responsibility to help our elderly finish their lives with dignity and reverence. It’s a fact that the bulk of our nation are incapable of even conceiving the sacrifices many of them made in order for us to enjoy the freedoms we use and abuse each and every day. So beyond pension schemes and Meals on Wheels, respect and honour will go a long way in helping to achieve it.
Unfortunately however, everyone involved, or not involved in this case, forgot to realise that there was a human life in the equation; a frightened, vulnerable, and perhaps momentarily lost individual who desperately needed something that job descriptions, manuals, government grants, and slick, well-oiled charity campaigns simply didn’t provide - demonstrable human compassion.
I live in hope that each of you is never placed in such a position.
FT
Anne - thank you!
He was and he remains so even days later. In fact, as I observe him he appears pensive and has become very quiet. He was robbed of something he cherished - his dignity. From a childhood of poverty, into the boiling cauldron of war, to the death of more than half his regiment, to the death of a child, his life-long partner and wife, and a theft committed by cowboys selling paved driveways, he has valiantly and remarkably endured. Each and every event he endured and refused to slip into an abyss of despair. But for some reason, this has knocked him with a vengeance. I think it has robbed him of his faith in the kindness of others, if not something far worse - I pray it hasn't robbed him of hope.
FT
He was and he remains so even days later. In fact, as I observe him he appears pensive and has become very quiet. He was robbed of something he cherished - his dignity. From a childhood of poverty, into the boiling cauldron of war, to the death of more than half his regiment, to the death of a child, his life-long partner and wife, and a theft committed by cowboys selling paved driveways, he has valiantly and remarkably endured. Each and every event he endured and refused to slip into an abyss of despair. But for some reason, this has knocked him with a vengeance. I think it has robbed him of his faith in the kindness of others, if not something far worse - I pray it hasn't robbed him of hope.
FT
I think they were most unkind .Poor old chap.
On a practical note though if your Dad is out and about and needs to go urgently and it's to far for the loo then have a look at the She Wee site .They do products for men too.Very discreet and he can always slip one in his pocket just in case .
http://www.shewee.com/
On a practical note though if your Dad is out and about and needs to go urgently and it's to far for the loo then have a look at the She Wee site .They do products for men too.Very discreet and he can always slip one in his pocket just in case .
http://www.shewee.com/
Shaney, thank you. I have asked but received a firm retort - quite rightly so. He's not suffering from incontinence he suffered from the insensitivity of others. He's not prone to accidents - has never had one. His sound and balanced mind would guide him to take precautions had the need arrived. This happened because of a denial.
Pasta - you are indeed right. Thank you
again, may no one else ever be placed in such a position.
FT
Pasta - you are indeed right. Thank you
again, may no one else ever be placed in such a position.
FT
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