Do Non-Beneficiary Relatives Have A Right To See A Will?

[Charlie299]

My dad died 20 months ago, and his estranged daughter from his first marriage has now written to us via her solicitor, asking to see a copy of the will. She was not a beneficiary (although some provision was made for her children, all of whom are over 21) and, due to the nature of the assets held in joint names, probate wasn't required so the will isn't public record. Are we required to show it to her?

[Peter Pedant]

There is a chancery lawyer who answers wills and probate questions [Barmaid ] and I wd be interested to see what she says

cooee Barmaid ! you there ?

The question is in the nature of a family quarrel and one side is already lawyered up ....

Usually wills difficulty - the inquirer can apply to the probate office once probate has been granted for a copy of the will - but you say no probate was applied for

The estranged daughter presumably wonders what 'her share' is - and whether she has been unlawfully deprived blah blah etc etc esp as her kids have got something

The daughter's lawyer cant force you to apply for probate
as she has not interest in the will

Difficult one - see what Barmaid says
If you send a copy of the will - it may trigger trouble
and if you DON'T ... the daughter may scream her +++ off that she is the victim of graud ....

[Peter Pedant]

Oh what about

Dear Sir here is a copy of XYZ'will
You will notice your client Mrs ABC has no interest in it
Yours JOe Bloggs ?

[bednobs]

I am slightly puzzled about assets being in joint names, but there still being beneficiaries -

[Charlie299]

Edit: there was a clause stating that the children would have been beneficiaries if my mum had died within 30 days of my dad's death. Given that this didn't happen, everything passed to my mum ergo no probate.

[woofgang]

It says here that all documentation giving permission to distribute an estate are in the public domain and this includes the will.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/relationships/death-and-wills/dealing-with-the-financial-affairs-of-someone-who-has-died/#h-after-probate-or-letters-of-administration-has-been-granted.
Some kind of official permission process is always required. Its the government's way of ensuring that all tax is paid. You don't have to give her a copy but she can get copies of the documents by applying here.
https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance/searching-for-probate-records

[woofgang]

wrong. I am a widow and my husband's complete estate passed to me. There still had to be a probate process and a grant of probate issued.

[bednobs]

you don't have to apply for probate if the estate is small thoguh

[woofgang]

Not probate bedknobs but there is always some kind of official process to agree that yes the estate is too small and yes the person owes no tax and yes the person who has applied is entitled to apply and yes they may deal with the estate. The documentation for this process also becomes public domain and copies can be applied for by anybody, just like a probate document.

[bednobs]

your link seems to suggest otherwide though :)

[Dogsbody2]

This sounds to me like there is a house involved that is held as joint tenants between you and your Dad. On passing of one of the joint tenants, the property automatically to the other tenant.
Estranged daughter feels aggrieved.
Solicitors could have checked the property ownership via the LR very simply.
Can't see the harm in providing a copy of the will if this is the scenario.

[woofgang]

Its not clear is it bedknobs? banks and so on may pay out without one and you may get it confirmed by the probate office that you don't need then but I understand that you always have to apply. I don't think there are any circumstances where you can just dispose of the estate without official agreement and if there is a house then I think it needs confirming that the spouse is indeed the spouse and so on.

[Dogsbody2]

Oh yes there are, Woofgang.
If a property is held as joint tenancy, the ownership automatically transfers to the surviving tenant(s) outside the remit of any Will of the deceased.
This is how it may have happened that probate was not required
However all of the debate is irrelevant until the OP decides to give us further info - mine is just an informed guess.

[woofgang]

but in this case dogsbody, there IS a will. Its my understanding that if there is a will then the will MUST go through an official process, therefore it must become a public document. The OP also says "everything" not just a house, which were my circs more or less and there did need to be an official process gone through.

[Mamyalynne]

Speaking from a purely non legal background tell her she can get a copy through the proper channels and leave her to it.

[Dogsbody2]

Woofgang, the point I am making is that the LR will (I believe) deal with the registration of an asset (house) held as joint tenancy independent of whether there is a Will or not. That is how it may have happened without sight of a grant of probate being required by LR.
Whether or not probate is required for other purposes (for example to demonstrate the estate is not liable for IHT, which WILL need to include the market value of any property owned - in the case of my assumed scenario, half of it) is a separate issue.
If all the gentleman left was a share of a house and little else in assets in banks or other accounts, those bodies may not have required to see the Grant before releasing assets.
Its irrelevant and off topic anyway - the question is about the Will and the answer is no, but why irritate the estranged daughter by refusal.

[Peter Pedant]

.

from the land registry: http://blog.landregistry.gov.uk/property-owner-dies/

If the deceased was a joint owner and the partner is still alive, you would normally just register the death with us by lodging a form DJP, along with an official copy of the Probate or death certificate. - See more at: http://blog.landregistry.gov.uk/property-owner-dies/#sthash.JpG79JZY.dpuf

which looks as tho probate is not reqd to change ownership if it is joint.

a bit off thread - doesnt tell you whether to supply a copy of the will

I would to be honest ....

[Dogsbody2]

As per previous, I do not speak with forked tongue.

[Peter Pedant]

Dogz no one is suggesting you are
and your replies are read ( and treasured even )

the issue with the law section is that QCs who know a lot rub shoulders ( anonymously ) with people like me ( who er dont )

and the OP has to decide which is which - and quite frequently doesnt/cant

[Dogsbody2]

PP - on this thread I am grateful to you who provided the link to demonstrate my lack of split tongue. On a topic like Law, quality not quantity should prevail. Unfortunately there seem to be too many who trot out the same standardised knowledge they have picked up without appreciation of context or finer points.

[Peter Pedant]

Hi DOgz

well my father died in 1970 and my mother went on living in the house until 1995 - and we had to 'bring the epitome of title' up to date since their purchase in 1960.

and the people 'who did' just said yeah OK - no probs

But there was no dispute - in charlie's case I think there will be - so would I recommend what my own family did without any legal mishap ? erm no I wouldn't really

[ oh there was splitting and in-fill building and god knows what but all the children agreed what had been done and why ( and when ) ]