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ChatterBank1 min ago
Tenant information
Good morning everyone, this question is also posted in the Home & Garden section.
My question relates to a tenant's rights when they are not able to inhabit the property due to flood damage caused by a third party.
What happened was,
The numpty upstairs managed to empty a whole bath load of water through our roof which destroyed our bed, mattress, duvet etc. and soaked the bedroom carpet.
This was a month ago and since then we have been living elsewhere, at cost to ourselves.
At first we stopped paying rent as we clearly couldn't live there and we had to pay to live elsewhere. (We're not made of money)
The Landlord has now said we have to pay the rent and then claim it back which, at the pace they are doing things at the moment, could take ages.
My question is this.
Can we legally refuse to pay rent on a place that we clearly can't inhabit and haven't been able to for a month now.
Any help will be appreciated as we certainly can't afford to be paying for two places while ours is being slowly repaired.
Ta,
k
My question relates to a tenant's rights when they are not able to inhabit the property due to flood damage caused by a third party.
What happened was,
The numpty upstairs managed to empty a whole bath load of water through our roof which destroyed our bed, mattress, duvet etc. and soaked the bedroom carpet.
This was a month ago and since then we have been living elsewhere, at cost to ourselves.
At first we stopped paying rent as we clearly couldn't live there and we had to pay to live elsewhere. (We're not made of money)
The Landlord has now said we have to pay the rent and then claim it back which, at the pace they are doing things at the moment, could take ages.
My question is this.
Can we legally refuse to pay rent on a place that we clearly can't inhabit and haven't been able to for a month now.
Any help will be appreciated as we certainly can't afford to be paying for two places while ours is being slowly repaired.
Ta,
k
Answers
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Are you intending to return to the flat? Is the LL intending that you return to the flat? Any idea how long that will be?
For a short duration, for instance whist builders are in and you couldn't live there, the LL has to find you alternative accommodation at no extra cost to yourself.
For longer periods, if your flat is made uninhabitable, then the agreement becomes null and void as the LL does not have a property to rent to you. The LL may offer you alternative accommodation if something suitable is available.
So, no, you shouldnt be paying two lots of rent.
For a short duration, for instance whist builders are in and you couldn't live there, the LL has to find you alternative accommodation at no extra cost to yourself.
For longer periods, if your flat is made uninhabitable, then the agreement becomes null and void as the LL does not have a property to rent to you. The LL may offer you alternative accommodation if something suitable is available.
So, no, you shouldnt be paying two lots of rent.
Hi,
many thanks for your reply.
At the moment there is no timetable for the place to be habitable again. The LL made no offer that I'm aware of to rehouse us.
It has been 5 weeks this weekend that we had to move out. We are in two minds about returning to the flat.
My g/f found out she was pregnant just before the place was flooded and, as it is a one bedroom place, is slightly limiting to us when the baby arrives.
I know this is a bit of an intrusive question Twenty but are you a legally qualified person? Trust me, I'm not asking this in a sarcastic manner, I would just like to be able to quote accurately.
many thanks,
K
many thanks for your reply.
At the moment there is no timetable for the place to be habitable again. The LL made no offer that I'm aware of to rehouse us.
It has been 5 weeks this weekend that we had to move out. We are in two minds about returning to the flat.
My g/f found out she was pregnant just before the place was flooded and, as it is a one bedroom place, is slightly limiting to us when the baby arrives.
I know this is a bit of an intrusive question Twenty but are you a legally qualified person? Trust me, I'm not asking this in a sarcastic manner, I would just like to be able to quote accurately.
many thanks,
K
What type of tenancy agreement do you have? What's the length of the agreement? Have you reached an agreement with the landlord over arrangements for your temporary absence?
Your tenancy agreement is a a contract between yourself and the landlord. You agree to pay rent for the accommodation. If the landlord can't provide you with the agreed accommodation then your choice would be to enforce the contract or claim breach of contract.
If the current accommodation is uninhabitable then it would be reasonable to expect the landlord to offer you alternative accommodation of a similar standard and you would continue to pay rent.
If the landlord refuses then you can claim breach of contract and consequential loss.
In your circumstances you probably also have a case to sue the landlord, the neighbour or both for the damage caused to your property.
From your posting it sounds like the landlord expects you to pay your own accommodation costs and pay him for accommodation he doesn't provide.
See the Shelter website or try the Shelter Helpline on 0808 800 4444.
It might be worthwhile making an appointment at your local Citizens Advice Bureau. They have contacts with housing specialists who can help you clarify your rights.
Your tenancy agreement is a a contract between yourself and the landlord. You agree to pay rent for the accommodation. If the landlord can't provide you with the agreed accommodation then your choice would be to enforce the contract or claim breach of contract.
If the current accommodation is uninhabitable then it would be reasonable to expect the landlord to offer you alternative accommodation of a similar standard and you would continue to pay rent.
If the landlord refuses then you can claim breach of contract and consequential loss.
In your circumstances you probably also have a case to sue the landlord, the neighbour or both for the damage caused to your property.
From your posting it sounds like the landlord expects you to pay your own accommodation costs and pay him for accommodation he doesn't provide.
See the Shelter website or try the Shelter Helpline on 0808 800 4444.
It might be worthwhile making an appointment at your local Citizens Advice Bureau. They have contacts with housing specialists who can help you clarify your rights.
Thank you. The advice I'm getting is amazing and much appreciated.
I will try the Shelter line, but as for CAB, I've been trying for fortnight and still haven't been able to get through. Nice.
The Lease agreement was due to be renewed around May / June time but the LL hasn't made any effort to have anything signed so I'm presuming we're bound by an implied contract based upon the previous one that was in existence.
Regarding compensation. We did write a letter saying that we were expecting compensation for our time living away. This was requested by the LL so they could claim the loss on their business insurance.
The insurance company for our contents is seeking the cost of our bed and things from the guy who owns the flat above. The problem there is that we think he is lying to the insurance company about what happened. I won't go into that though at the moment. I just hope that it doesn't hinder what we're trying to do.
The LL was away at the time of the incident and, unless they spoke to my g/f, have made no offer of alternative accomodation.
Thanks,
K
I will try the Shelter line, but as for CAB, I've been trying for fortnight and still haven't been able to get through. Nice.
The Lease agreement was due to be renewed around May / June time but the LL hasn't made any effort to have anything signed so I'm presuming we're bound by an implied contract based upon the previous one that was in existence.
Regarding compensation. We did write a letter saying that we were expecting compensation for our time living away. This was requested by the LL so they could claim the loss on their business insurance.
The insurance company for our contents is seeking the cost of our bed and things from the guy who owns the flat above. The problem there is that we think he is lying to the insurance company about what happened. I won't go into that though at the moment. I just hope that it doesn't hinder what we're trying to do.
The LL was away at the time of the incident and, unless they spoke to my g/f, have made no offer of alternative accomodation.
Thanks,
K
Well, spoke to Shelter.
Apparently, we may still be liable to pay rent on the flat even though we can't actually live there. We may have to negotiate with the LL for a reduced rate but it seems that officially we're not entitled to squat!!!
Nice, I may go to the guy upstairs and punch him in the face.
Thanks for your help.
K
Apparently, we may still be liable to pay rent on the flat even though we can't actually live there. We may have to negotiate with the LL for a reduced rate but it seems that officially we're not entitled to squat!!!
Nice, I may go to the guy upstairs and punch him in the face.
Thanks for your help.
K
It's important to know what type of tenancy agreement you have, how long it runs and what part of the country you're in. Scotland and England have different legislation.
The important question here is why did you leave you accommodation? Did the landlord tell you to leave? If so, it could be argued that this was an illegal eviction.
If you agreed to leave then it would be reasonable to clarify the agreement that was made at that time. The landlord may be of the view that you agreed to leave, to find and pay for your own accommodation and pay full rent for the damaged property until it was repaired. What's your understanding of the agreement? Has any agreement been made in writing? What have you done to clarify your position with the landlord?
You have to decide whether you want to return to the first property or whether you believe the landlord has effectively terminated the tenancy agreement. He may not have given you a date to return.
I'd argue that it would be unreasonable for the landlord to charge you for something he can't suppy. I'd also argue that the landlord is in breach of contract and should pay you consequential loss for the costs to you of finding alternative acommodation.
Shelter are probably playing Devil's advocate. They do have a legal team who can act for you if you're in danger of eviction. What would happen if you couldn't pay the rent?
CAB phonelines can be busy but you're not restricted to the nearest office. Many local authorities have Private Rented Sector Teams (or some similar name). They're there to make sure landlords act properly.
Seek legal advice. Many solicitors offer a free half-hour initial interview. Make sure they specialise in housing law.
On the damages claim it's reasonably straightforward. You have insurance in case of emergencies. You make a claim and the company deals with it, whether that be against
The important question here is why did you leave you accommodation? Did the landlord tell you to leave? If so, it could be argued that this was an illegal eviction.
If you agreed to leave then it would be reasonable to clarify the agreement that was made at that time. The landlord may be of the view that you agreed to leave, to find and pay for your own accommodation and pay full rent for the damaged property until it was repaired. What's your understanding of the agreement? Has any agreement been made in writing? What have you done to clarify your position with the landlord?
You have to decide whether you want to return to the first property or whether you believe the landlord has effectively terminated the tenancy agreement. He may not have given you a date to return.
I'd argue that it would be unreasonable for the landlord to charge you for something he can't suppy. I'd also argue that the landlord is in breach of contract and should pay you consequential loss for the costs to you of finding alternative acommodation.
Shelter are probably playing Devil's advocate. They do have a legal team who can act for you if you're in danger of eviction. What would happen if you couldn't pay the rent?
CAB phonelines can be busy but you're not restricted to the nearest office. Many local authorities have Private Rented Sector Teams (or some similar name). They're there to make sure landlords act properly.
Seek legal advice. Many solicitors offer a free half-hour initial interview. Make sure they specialise in housing law.
On the damages claim it's reasonably straightforward. You have insurance in case of emergencies. You make a claim and the company deals with it, whether that be against
Sorry. Too many words.
On the damages claim it's reasonably straightforward. You have insurance in case of emergencies. You make a claim and the company deals with it, whether that be against individuals or other insurance companies.
Good Luck. There are many good private landlords but some landlords give b*st*rds a bad name.
On the damages claim it's reasonably straightforward. You have insurance in case of emergencies. You make a claim and the company deals with it, whether that be against individuals or other insurance companies.
Good Luck. There are many good private landlords but some landlords give b*st*rds a bad name.
sarnieken I'm actually a landlord so do have some experience but that doesn't mean you could quote me, and the same goes for any other person giving advice on here, but it should give you a good starting point.
For a more comprehensive answer you could post your question on a more specific board. Try http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/forumdisp lay.php?f=3
It's aimed at landlords, but answers questions posted by tenants too.
In your particular case a lot will depend on whether the flat is uninhabitable or not.
As to the fact that, as you say, the landlord has made no effort to renew the agreement, this really has no effect. Without a new agreement your tenancy becomes a Periodic Tenancy which may actually be to your benefit as you need only give one months notice to leave the property (the landlord must give two months). All other terms of the agreement would be as your previous agreement.
Hope this helps.
For a more comprehensive answer you could post your question on a more specific board. Try http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/forumdisp lay.php?f=3
It's aimed at landlords, but answers questions posted by tenants too.
In your particular case a lot will depend on whether the flat is uninhabitable or not.
As to the fact that, as you say, the landlord has made no effort to renew the agreement, this really has no effect. Without a new agreement your tenancy becomes a Periodic Tenancy which may actually be to your benefit as you need only give one months notice to leave the property (the landlord must give two months). All other terms of the agreement would be as your previous agreement.
Hope this helps.
many thanks for the advice.
The problem I think is that so much of it was done over the phone on the day and in a bit of a panic that its not possible to clarify exact details.
this isn't good, I know that.
As for the condition of the flat.
It is a one bedroom flat with no room anywhere for a bed to be be put. Also, my g/f is pregnant and, as such, finds it difficult to sleep at the best of times on our ace bed. Sleeping on the couch for a month would have killed her and would'nt have been any good for the baby.
Regarding the agreement, I understand that it is now a rolling contract, month by month.
According to Shelter, our best option is to negotiate with the LL and try to come to something amicable.
I'm not holding much hope out for that though. The LL isn't the most reasonable of people.
The problem I think is that so much of it was done over the phone on the day and in a bit of a panic that its not possible to clarify exact details.
this isn't good, I know that.
As for the condition of the flat.
It is a one bedroom flat with no room anywhere for a bed to be be put. Also, my g/f is pregnant and, as such, finds it difficult to sleep at the best of times on our ace bed. Sleeping on the couch for a month would have killed her and would'nt have been any good for the baby.
Regarding the agreement, I understand that it is now a rolling contract, month by month.
According to Shelter, our best option is to negotiate with the LL and try to come to something amicable.
I'm not holding much hope out for that though. The LL isn't the most reasonable of people.
Ok, my advice.......
Give a month's notice on the flat. Your agreement may say differently but one month is the law on a periodic AST. (I'm 99% sure that you could claim that the agreement is null and void now and just walk away, but better to do it properly).
Don't pay any more rent on the flat. I can't see that the landlord will chase you on this as it appears that he doesnt have a property to rent to you.
I'm assuming you have found somewhere else suitable to live?
If he decides to withhold your deposit in lieu of rent then, after sending suitable letters, take him to the small claims court (you can do this online).
Your insurance company are dealing with your damage and loses to your contents.
You could make a claim for costs involved in moving etc but, personally, I'd just try and walk away from it as that could get protracted.
From a landlord's viewpoint he really has no legal right to charge you for something that he's not providing.
Hope this helps.
Give a month's notice on the flat. Your agreement may say differently but one month is the law on a periodic AST. (I'm 99% sure that you could claim that the agreement is null and void now and just walk away, but better to do it properly).
Don't pay any more rent on the flat. I can't see that the landlord will chase you on this as it appears that he doesnt have a property to rent to you.
I'm assuming you have found somewhere else suitable to live?
If he decides to withhold your deposit in lieu of rent then, after sending suitable letters, take him to the small claims court (you can do this online).
Your insurance company are dealing with your damage and loses to your contents.
You could make a claim for costs involved in moving etc but, personally, I'd just try and walk away from it as that could get protracted.
From a landlord's viewpoint he really has no legal right to charge you for something that he's not providing.
Hope this helps.
As a landlord who also suffered 3rd party flooding I can only give you what I can remember from when I researched it. You need to continue to pay the rent but can get what is known is rent abatement. Look this up in a search engine. Also look up thing like essential repairs.
I gave my tenants full rent relief when the ground floor flooded, but I read I only needed to give them a percentage of what area of the accomodation was uninhabitable.
There is a process to go through. If you think the repairs are taking too long you complain, then the landlord has 28 days to make it right, then you can go down further routes.
If you stop paying rent you are in breach of your tenancy agreement and the landlord will be able to ask you to leave. It sounds like the landlord is going down the correct route of what sounds like an application for rent abatement.
Could you move back in and sleep in the lounge? Has the bathwater still not dried up? Could you borrow a dehumidifier? Is the ceiling damaged? Just trying to get a picture of the extent of the damage. Take some photos in case it does go further and can help you claim the rent rebate.
I gave my tenants full rent relief when the ground floor flooded, but I read I only needed to give them a percentage of what area of the accomodation was uninhabitable.
There is a process to go through. If you think the repairs are taking too long you complain, then the landlord has 28 days to make it right, then you can go down further routes.
If you stop paying rent you are in breach of your tenancy agreement and the landlord will be able to ask you to leave. It sounds like the landlord is going down the correct route of what sounds like an application for rent abatement.
Could you move back in and sleep in the lounge? Has the bathwater still not dried up? Could you borrow a dehumidifier? Is the ceiling damaged? Just trying to get a picture of the extent of the damage. Take some photos in case it does go further and can help you claim the rent rebate.
Good morning Jedimistress,
The LL had someone in surveying the place who said that the ceiling needed replacing in the bedroom.
The place is a one bedroom flat and everything that was in the bedroom and wasn't destroyed is now stored everywhere else.
We can't sleep in the lounge as my g/f is pregnant and needs a proper bed to sleep on.
Also, her clothes are being stored in the lounge.
Also, is it fair to expect anyone to sleep on their sofa for an entire month while the LL drags their heels?
Thanks,
K
The LL had someone in surveying the place who said that the ceiling needed replacing in the bedroom.
The place is a one bedroom flat and everything that was in the bedroom and wasn't destroyed is now stored everywhere else.
We can't sleep in the lounge as my g/f is pregnant and needs a proper bed to sleep on.
Also, her clothes are being stored in the lounge.
Also, is it fair to expect anyone to sleep on their sofa for an entire month while the LL drags their heels?
Thanks,
K
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