Hi, i have a problem. I know there was a rule that stated that you are required to use the singular for
a situation
similar to the following, but i can't remember exactly what the situation was
mary's books and peter's pen are/is on the table?
Can someone please tell me the rules of agreement in cases like this?
haruhichan Wed 11/06/08 19:28
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If you can substitute it for the item use is, if the substitute is they then they are.
Hope that makes sense.
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they are on the table. More than one.
(Perhaps the trickier case you are thinking of is with OR rather than AND: Mary's book or Peter's pen IS on the table ... since only one thing is. Mary's books or Peter's pen.... ummm... that is tricky as you don't know whether it's one thing or more than one thing.)
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haruhichan that singular sounds odd to me but I am DaForeigner so never mind me, I'm just here to advise you to ask over at Phrases & Sayings instead - you'll get more replies there.
I'm guessing that what you're thinking of must be certain phrases like for instance "the world and his aunt" (I've only just learned that one so it springs to mind!), where the aunt is... attributive, I guess? ...and following which I'm guessing you could use either one - is or are.
But I am really just guessing and I'm not good at grammar in my own language either, so as I say, get yourself over to the correct category and you'll get good replies.
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Oh hi jno - is my example correct, i e could you use either is or are ?
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yes, I think that's right, the world and his aunt are at the party... but bear in mind that it's a deliberately surreal sort of expression anyway, supposed to sound peculiar, so you could probably get away with 'is'.
Embarrassingly, you can generally rely on DaSwede to speak better English than those who grew up with it...
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That's sweet jno but it's not so - you should hear me trying to find even the simplest words, talking. Thanks anyway...
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It is a very basic level question of English Grammar. If you need to ask the answer to this it really is time you got yourself into a first level English grammar class. There are plenty of them and lots of English grammar sites on the web.
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'Bread and butter is good for you' and 'Bread and butter are good for you' are both perfectly acceptable as they do not mean the same thing! The first means the two substances together...ie the second spread on the first...have become effectively a separate entity requiring a singular verb. The second means each individual substance is good in its own right.
In your exmple, the plural 'are' is definitely required, since several books and one pen still represent a plural quantity.
In situations such as the one outlined by J above, writers frequently apply the 'rule' - for want of a better word - that you should use whichever verb-form applies to the closer of the two items. You thus have the choice of writing "Mary's books or Peter's pen is on the table" or "Peter's pen or Mary's books are on the table."
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Question Author
yes, thank you, that was the answer i was looking for, because i found it written like that in several instances, that is agreeing with the last item used, which has always sounded odd to me, because in my language it never applies, and i was just wondering if it is a poetic license or an actual rule that i had failed to interpret properly.
i know the example i gave wasn't exactly the best one, i think it might have been rather confusing, because i didn't know exactly how to formulate my question.
thank you very much for all your help, everyone
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Interesting to note that, in the example above, if you are referring to 'bread and butter' as a combined object then there is no plural form.
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Actually, Tichfield, if I found myself in a café ordering fish and chips for a companion and me, I might well add, "Oh, and two bread and butters, please", especially if 'Bread & Butter' was listed on the menu as an item.
Similarly with "Two gin and tonics" etc.
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...or in my case, two gins and tonic...
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Is that your way of saying "A double gin and tonic", J...ie a single drink involving two tots of gin in one glass with one bottle/squish of tonic water added?
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I only add the tonic in case I contract malaria, Quizmonster
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a good safety precaution jno! although after a few 'gins and tonic' the bugs probably wouldn't like the taste of you anyway!
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