Listener 4109 Not a Black and White Decision

[AndrewG-S]

Grid complete except for one cell and 18 clashes identified, but stuck at the moment as to what to do next. Enjoyable so far

[AndrewG-S]

I am surprised that this left so many unsatisfied, it seemed to me to be well constructed and a puzzle where a careful read of the preamble narrowed down the options at the end considerably.

[serpentinew]

Jamesah - my comment on the interchangeable rows (bottom 3) meant that they can go on one side or the other of the completed grid - there are 2 ways, I found, to make the 18 clashes required.

[serpentinew]

To avoid any further confusion - the "right" way to insert the "interchangeable rows" is the one you should find first. So possibly best to ignore my comment - It was to me a frustrating end game (time wise) but as AndrewG-S points out, had I read the preamble more logically it would not have been so tortuous.

[Jogler]

We have been following the thread with some interest for some days and feel moved to put in our tuppence worth at this point. We did not think that the preamble was particularly well written, but contrived to obfuscate. I certainly think we would have finished the endgame much more quickly with less 'help' in the preamble.

[Clamzy]

And there I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head Jogler.

[contendo]

The endgame continues to elude me but I'm glad to know that I'm in such distinguished company. Would it be improper for me to ask whether the distribution of the final highlighting bears any relationship to 1ac?

[dr b]

I thought the preamble was clear enough; once you see what it implies the endgame comes pretty quickly. I was more bothered by the lack of connection between answering the clues and the thematic material - two completely separate puzzles for the price of one. Note that this is all within the context of "enjoying the Listener very much" (if I didn't I would find a different way to spend my time). I just "enjoy very much" some more than others.

aldana - I would never laugh very hard at someone for whom the P has not yet D'd.

[dr b]

Clamzy - once you're done you can see how 1a relates to the shading and the other thematic material. This was only apparent (to me, anyway) in hindsight - I didn't use 1a to guide me towards what to shade.

[dr b]

whoops, sorry, meant contendo.

[AndrewG-S]

Much like the puzzle itself this one seems to have divided opinions, very apt

[contendo]

Finally saw the light. The penny didn't so much drop as slowly sink.

[andrewvc12]

Is there an error in the second clue of 11d? Thanks

[aldana]

drb, I was not for a moment suggesting you would laugh at me, but that the risibility of Oedipus Rex might have not yet faded!

[dr b]

^^andrew, I don' t think there's an error there.

^aldana, Ah. (or, d'oh.) yes, the play was dandy. I have not laughed so hard since King Lear.

[andrewvc12]

Thanks dr b, I thought the "s" in "needs" was redundant or needed an apostrophe in front of it. Like many others, I've filled the grid but now need to dwell on it!

[jamesah]

2 hours solving the clues on Sunday afternoon and very little progress since! I thought that I knew how to resolve the clashes but nothing has emerged which means anything. Perhaps something is fundamentally wrong somewhere but it looks as if I shall have to wait a couple of weeks. I just hope that the explanation of the solution is more explicit than the preamble which remains opaque despite numerous attempts to understand it.

[contendo]

No-one has mentioned the quality of the cluing, which in my opinion is as good as it gets. I especially like the way Brock has cunningly disguised the joins between the two halves of the clues.

[jamesah]

Finished at last thanks to invaluable help from Clamzy. I had the wrong clashes which didn't help at all. However I now seem to have got 20 clashes rather than 18 but never mind. I still don't think much of the preamble.

[turast]

Completed today having had the correct 18 clashes for ages. I needed my hand held by Clamzy and Andrew G-S to get to the PDM . I agree with Contendo that the clues were top notch. I'm beginning to grasp the enormity of what it takes to come to terms with Listener preambles and endgames. Solving the clues, it seems, is often merely an enjoyable warm-up for the difficulties to come.

[Cruncher]

Limped across the line. Reading these posts I agree with them all. Nice cluing, clever idea and pleasing tie-up between top and bottom lines but a very convoluted way to crack an egg