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"Three things happen when they are in the lab: you fall in love with them, they fall in love with you, and when you criticise them they cry." and when you criticise them they cry.... And when Tim Hunt is critised he sulks and resigns...
09:48 Thu 11th Jun 2015
Mikey, //Naomi...it is your incredible ability to be contrary about issues that gave me the idea of nicknaming you as Mary-Mary, which was meant as a gentle tease and nothing more. Which I am sure you knew already. But I am more than happy not to use the phrase again if you that is what you wish.//
As ‘my old dad’ would say, “You can call me anything you like as long as you don’t call me too late for my dinner”.
As ‘my old dad’ would say, “You can call me anything you like as long as you don’t call me too late for my dinner”.
@vetuste -- apologies for the delay in response. I was travelling most of the day, got home late, etc etc. Saw it but didn't have the time to put a reply together.
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I guess I don't really know. I'm uncomfortable with having people who express opinions like Tim Hunt did carrying on in their job. On the other hand, is it enough justification to sack someone? Probably not, no. If I were on the committee that decided whether or not he could stay I would probably press for some sort of formal reprimand or other, maybe request a full, unreserved public apology, that sort of thing. It might also depend on what previous form he had, of course.
The thing is though that comments like these, especially when he effectively persisted with them, send a really bad message. It's true that office romances can be a distraction from work -- hardly unique to science, of course -- but this is not "trouble with girls". It's true that criticism of work has to be perceived as separate from personal criticism. I don't think this is "trouble with girls" either. Note he even went on to say, apparently, that he was in favour of science labs being single-sex, so this is more than just a badly-worded comment on office romances. The way in which he phrased his comments delivers such a bad message and, while his sacking or resignation may be a step too far, I would rather see an overreaction to this sort of thing than not enough of one.
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I guess I don't really know. I'm uncomfortable with having people who express opinions like Tim Hunt did carrying on in their job. On the other hand, is it enough justification to sack someone? Probably not, no. If I were on the committee that decided whether or not he could stay I would probably press for some sort of formal reprimand or other, maybe request a full, unreserved public apology, that sort of thing. It might also depend on what previous form he had, of course.
The thing is though that comments like these, especially when he effectively persisted with them, send a really bad message. It's true that office romances can be a distraction from work -- hardly unique to science, of course -- but this is not "trouble with girls". It's true that criticism of work has to be perceived as separate from personal criticism. I don't think this is "trouble with girls" either. Note he even went on to say, apparently, that he was in favour of science labs being single-sex, so this is more than just a badly-worded comment on office romances. The way in which he phrased his comments delivers such a bad message and, while his sacking or resignation may be a step too far, I would rather see an overreaction to this sort of thing than not enough of one.
Hi Jim you are having a nice thread
Having done some lab based work - I can see why they have given him the chop.
I thought it was more likely that he was figurehead and they were getting tired of the current one and were looking forward to another. This was a god-given opportunity to get rid. Especially as he regretted making the remarks but not holding them - not exactly a repentant admission of having been a sinner
I also thought he would not have been fired but that three men in grey suits came calling - and you know a full and frank conversation followed on the lines of : and how many 72 y olds do you know still running a lab ? and his reply of : and how many nobel prizes do you lot hold between the three of you ? and
we are not the thought police - you can hold your views and we love them - and respect you and the views however not as leader of this lab ..... and so on... until he takes the 'hint' and gets his coat
Having done some lab based work - I can see why they have given him the chop.
I thought it was more likely that he was figurehead and they were getting tired of the current one and were looking forward to another. This was a god-given opportunity to get rid. Especially as he regretted making the remarks but not holding them - not exactly a repentant admission of having been a sinner
I also thought he would not have been fired but that three men in grey suits came calling - and you know a full and frank conversation followed on the lines of : and how many 72 y olds do you know still running a lab ? and his reply of : and how many nobel prizes do you lot hold between the three of you ? and
we are not the thought police - you can hold your views and we love them - and respect you and the views however not as leader of this lab ..... and so on... until he takes the 'hint' and gets his coat
I'm afraid you won't accept anything I say, jim. You are the product of 15 years of Marxist indoctrination that passes for an education nowadays. I see it in all your posts and all around me in society today. Political Correctness is a Marxist construct designed for the sole reason of stifling debate, deciding the parameters of debate. Who decides what is, or more importantly, what isn't correct?
// Can you explain, please, exactly .... Jim? I read it like this: people who hold certain opinions should either (a) NOT be hired for certain "responsible" positions, or (b) that they should be removed from those positions if they express "such views" in public.//
erm this is the point of the interview on appointment innit ?
[ the following are all made up ]
it is like the chmn ( of chief fundraiser ) of CERN saying well it keeps us off the streets but no one really expects the LHC to do anything else ....
or Mark Carney chmn of BoE saying: well it goes up and it goes down and I really think I dont have much control over these things
or the chmn of the equal opportunities commission saying - you know I am sure those blokes from southern africa dont wash you know and who wants someone reeking in the work-place beside him every day of his life ?
or even
Stanley Baldwin - yes I admit putting party political interests ( winning an election ) in front of interests of the country ( re-arming before 1939 )
and yeah if any of them said that ( but of course they havent - this is a fr'instnace ) then they would be unfit for their appointed office
erm this is the point of the interview on appointment innit ?
[ the following are all made up ]
it is like the chmn ( of chief fundraiser ) of CERN saying well it keeps us off the streets but no one really expects the LHC to do anything else ....
or Mark Carney chmn of BoE saying: well it goes up and it goes down and I really think I dont have much control over these things
or the chmn of the equal opportunities commission saying - you know I am sure those blokes from southern africa dont wash you know and who wants someone reeking in the work-place beside him every day of his life ?
or even
Stanley Baldwin - yes I admit putting party political interests ( winning an election ) in front of interests of the country ( re-arming before 1939 )
and yeah if any of them said that ( but of course they havent - this is a fr'instnace ) then they would be unfit for their appointed office
Maybe I won't svejk, and if so I'm sorry. The problem is that accusations of brainwashing are just by definition irrefutable. I say I am and confirm it. I say I am not but then "I would, wouldn't I?" It's a completely pointless accusation because I have no way to reply.
With respect to this topic, it bothers me that people think that such attitudes are OK. Any organisation, or profession, if it is not seen to be open to all, risks discouraging people who could make a contribution. The remark someone made a few pages back about how "if women are discouraged by this they probably didn't have anything useful to contribute anyway" is completely wrong. It's unreasonable to expect people to have to put up or shut up with discrimination where it exists if it is daily, sustained, creates a hostile working environment etc. It's an un-necessary pressure and should be resisted.
And the fact is that it's clear that despite recent efforts there is still some way to go. Women remain underrepresented overall in many subjects, and certainly in Sciences where rather than the ~50% you should expect the number of women is closer to 20%. Whatever the reason for this, Science is damaged far more in the long run if it is potentially missing out on such a large source of talent. And statements like Tim Hunt's are unlikely to improve the situation.
With respect to this topic, it bothers me that people think that such attitudes are OK. Any organisation, or profession, if it is not seen to be open to all, risks discouraging people who could make a contribution. The remark someone made a few pages back about how "if women are discouraged by this they probably didn't have anything useful to contribute anyway" is completely wrong. It's unreasonable to expect people to have to put up or shut up with discrimination where it exists if it is daily, sustained, creates a hostile working environment etc. It's an un-necessary pressure and should be resisted.
And the fact is that it's clear that despite recent efforts there is still some way to go. Women remain underrepresented overall in many subjects, and certainly in Sciences where rather than the ~50% you should expect the number of women is closer to 20%. Whatever the reason for this, Science is damaged far more in the long run if it is potentially missing out on such a large source of talent. And statements like Tim Hunt's are unlikely to improve the situation.
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