Ok As Promised - Suggestions To Halt...
Society & Culture2 mins ago
My Dad has been charged with Driving Without Due Care and Attention - Please Help!
60 Answers
Hi there,
I'm really needing a bit of advice. My dad is 83 years old and still drives. He is one of the most opinionated and cantankerous people I know and he is as stubborn as a mule. I've been hoping for years that he might give up driving, but he refuses, blaming my 79 year old mother because she likes to get out of the house (my mum is disabled and can't get on a bus easily as she uses a wheelchair).
Anyway, he has told me he has been charged with Driving without Due Care and Attention. Apparently he had stopped at a T-Junction intending to turn right. He said that he was waiting for a space in the traffic on the road he was turning into. As he turned he felt a bump but didn't know what it was, so stopped the car. Basically there was a motorcyclist on his right hand side that came up the waiting queue of traffic and my dad hadn't seen the person. Thankfully he was not badly injured - just bruising. My dad intends to plead Not Guilty as the motorcyclist cut up the queue of traffic and my dad didn't see him while he was waiting at the head of the queue. I've told him to plead Guilty because regardless of what the motorcyclist was doing beforehand, my dad ended up hitting him, so he wasn't paying enough attention - am I right?
Also I've read that he could be fined and have 3-9 points on his license or a discretionary ban. What is the likelihood that the Court will take his driving license away and that will be an end to his stubborn refusal to give up when he is really not fit to drive? :-( He has no previous convictions (but has hit many walls , etc who obviously can't call the Police or claim his insurance).
I've seriously had enough of all of this worry and would love for his license to go, however selfish that might sound. He is not fit to be on the road.
I'm really needing a bit of advice. My dad is 83 years old and still drives. He is one of the most opinionated and cantankerous people I know and he is as stubborn as a mule. I've been hoping for years that he might give up driving, but he refuses, blaming my 79 year old mother because she likes to get out of the house (my mum is disabled and can't get on a bus easily as she uses a wheelchair).
Anyway, he has told me he has been charged with Driving without Due Care and Attention. Apparently he had stopped at a T-Junction intending to turn right. He said that he was waiting for a space in the traffic on the road he was turning into. As he turned he felt a bump but didn't know what it was, so stopped the car. Basically there was a motorcyclist on his right hand side that came up the waiting queue of traffic and my dad hadn't seen the person. Thankfully he was not badly injured - just bruising. My dad intends to plead Not Guilty as the motorcyclist cut up the queue of traffic and my dad didn't see him while he was waiting at the head of the queue. I've told him to plead Guilty because regardless of what the motorcyclist was doing beforehand, my dad ended up hitting him, so he wasn't paying enough attention - am I right?
Also I've read that he could be fined and have 3-9 points on his license or a discretionary ban. What is the likelihood that the Court will take his driving license away and that will be an end to his stubborn refusal to give up when he is really not fit to drive? :-( He has no previous convictions (but has hit many walls , etc who obviously can't call the Police or claim his insurance).
I've seriously had enough of all of this worry and would love for his license to go, however selfish that might sound. He is not fit to be on the road.
Answers
Yes he is guilty because a driver has to be aware of other road users at all times.
It is virtually certain that the court will order him to take an extended driving test and have a medical / optical examination to see if he is fit to still fit to drive. From what you have told us it is a forgone conclusion that he will fail the test. So the problem will be solved for...
It is virtually certain that the court will order him to take an extended driving test and have a medical / optical examination to see if he is fit to still fit to drive. From what you have told us it is a forgone conclusion that he will fail the test. So the problem will be solved for...
08:31 Fri 26th Aug 2011
There are a number of wrong points on this thread.
Filtering is a perfectly legitimate motorcycling manouvoure (I can never spell that damn word). When I took my test 20 odd years ago a friend of mine failed because he did not make progress by filtering.
That said, caution should always be exercised when filtering past traffic where there is a junction.
In the circumstances described there is plenty of case law that suggests your father is liable but the third party's damages will be reduced due to his contributory negligence (cases can be cited if required).
Despite the motorcyclist's partial blame, your father can still be convicted.
Filtering is a perfectly legitimate motorcycling manouvoure (I can never spell that damn word). When I took my test 20 odd years ago a friend of mine failed because he did not make progress by filtering.
That said, caution should always be exercised when filtering past traffic where there is a junction.
In the circumstances described there is plenty of case law that suggests your father is liable but the third party's damages will be reduced due to his contributory negligence (cases can be cited if required).
Despite the motorcyclist's partial blame, your father can still be convicted.
docspock, I've been able to find the actual junction on googlemaps, but it takes a bit of hunting, because it is not in a residential area and leads onto a country road. If I knew how to post a screenshot of the area, I would to show. It looks like there is actually only one lane; however, due to the length of time that people can be stuck in queues, my understanding is that many drivers turning right go alongside the cars turning left to get to the head of the queue - cars too.
I think, whatever your father says the motorcyclist was doing, they're going to take a dim view of a driver hitting one. Driving *with* due care and attention means being aware of what other road users are doing and avoiding them. After all, people can't defend hitting a pedestrian if the latter steps onto a pelican crossing on a red light. Quite what the court will say though, I really couldn't say. If there is any doubt about his fitness to drive, he'll probably be asked to undergo a medical and/or a driving test.
However, if your father ends up with points on his licence, he will be legally obliged to tell his insurance company, and they may well decide, given his age and this case, to either refuse to insure him or to raise his premium to a ridiculous level. Perhaps that will stop him.
I take it you have pointed out all the benefits of not driving. The expense, the worry of being 'responsible' and the sheer headache of driving in traffic will all be gone. As for your mum, many buses now are capable of taking wheelchairs, and what your dad now spends on running a car can be used instead for taxis.
However, if your father ends up with points on his licence, he will be legally obliged to tell his insurance company, and they may well decide, given his age and this case, to either refuse to insure him or to raise his premium to a ridiculous level. Perhaps that will stop him.
I take it you have pointed out all the benefits of not driving. The expense, the worry of being 'responsible' and the sheer headache of driving in traffic will all be gone. As for your mum, many buses now are capable of taking wheelchairs, and what your dad now spends on running a car can be used instead for taxis.
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I understand the 'Think Bike' signs, they are there for good intentions. But they fail to take into account human nature. If a driver sees one, then sure, for a short while they may be specifically looking for those who use difficult to spot modes of transport. But the affect will wear off.
One uses one's subconscious most of the time when doing something familiar. No doubt some will protest and say they are fully alert at all times on the road, but it is more likely they are just unaware, and in denial of the times when they aren't. This means the things you normally have to deal with tend to be done brilliantly, but the unexpected needs an interrupt, and is more likely to cause problems. Whilst safety is the responsibility of all on the road the emphasis should always be on those who opt for a higher risk travel alternative, such as a relatively thin vehicle such as a bike, to take the extra care. 'Think Car' signs would be a so much more pragmatic aid to safety.
One uses one's subconscious most of the time when doing something familiar. No doubt some will protest and say they are fully alert at all times on the road, but it is more likely they are just unaware, and in denial of the times when they aren't. This means the things you normally have to deal with tend to be done brilliantly, but the unexpected needs an interrupt, and is more likely to cause problems. Whilst safety is the responsibility of all on the road the emphasis should always be on those who opt for a higher risk travel alternative, such as a relatively thin vehicle such as a bike, to take the extra care. 'Think Car' signs would be a so much more pragmatic aid to safety.
Filtering ? Interesting; I'm unfamiliar with the term. Is that a polite way of saying pushing in because you can, rather than waiting your turn ? If so I may try flittering when next in the PO queue. And you say this is actually encouraged, by failing those who don't disrespect other road users and push in ? It all sounds rather irresponsible to me.
docspok im with you, im kinda sick of near misses with stupid bikers, whether the bike is pedal powered or engine powered a majority of bikers just do not care, i even get almost run over on a weekly basis at traffic light controlled pedestrian crossings...the lights are red and little man is green the crossing is bleeping for me to cross and yet bikers seem to go blind and deaf, they dont even slow down, just zoom around me scaring the life out of me, those with engine bikes only need 1 day of training to pass their tests, my partner has just been through this process, 1 day and off out on the road they go, and my partner said they were shocked that the entire class passed, half we crazy idiots with a need for speed, the other half could barely ride in a straight line as they were so nervous, and traffic terrified some of them into almost crashing...where are the signs that say Watch Out Cars or Watch Out Pedestrians???
I've always wryly smiled that car drivers get peeved because motorcyclists can legitimately make better progress than them. I've had car drivers see me in their side mirror whilst filtering and then gradually "drifted" to their right thus hampering my progress. Worse, I've seen a car driver force a motorcyclist over the white lines into oncoming traffic before.
When this happens to a friend of mine, as he passes he kicks their wing mirror off - not that I'd ever condone this......
I just can't understand why car drivers are jealous of somebody making better progress.
When this happens to a friend of mine, as he passes he kicks their wing mirror off - not that I'd ever condone this......
I just can't understand why car drivers are jealous of somebody making better progress.
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http://www.motorcycle...opic/?topic-id=357452
Article on filtering.
Article on filtering.
I feel sorry for you and I feel sorry for your Dad. My Dad is 83 and still drives and I worry myself sick about him as his reflexes nowadays are just not the same as when he was younger and like your Dad, he is rather opinionated (in fact I could have posted this thread myself!). Whoever is at fault this may be the end of his driving, which will be a relief for you. I dread something awful happening to Mum and Dad when they're out in the car, but Dad likes the independence it offers. It is a worry isn't it? I hope it all works out for the best for you.
i must agree, i think the motorcyclist is in the wrong here...he is supposed to take a full position in traffic as any other vehicle should...not double up on a single lane of a carriageway....really he should not have been there...
plus if your dad didnt even see him when he hit him, just felt a bump, he must have been behind him, and the motorcyclist must have hit your dad...the MC should not have tried to jump queues...
if your dad was turning right, and the cyclist was on his right...how can he have not seen a great big motorbike stopped a few feet to his right, beside his window, revving away for a good few minutes?
it seems unlikely he could have missed that, so its likely the bike was not waiting there at all...and was probably moving continuously along the queue of traffic ...and came up to your dads car at the last minute and tried to jump ahead of your dad, but misjudged it...
i agree hes old now, my dads the same, 83, and i dont want him onthe road either...but in this instance i think hes not to blame.
plus if your dad didnt even see him when he hit him, just felt a bump, he must have been behind him, and the motorcyclist must have hit your dad...the MC should not have tried to jump queues...
if your dad was turning right, and the cyclist was on his right...how can he have not seen a great big motorbike stopped a few feet to his right, beside his window, revving away for a good few minutes?
it seems unlikely he could have missed that, so its likely the bike was not waiting there at all...and was probably moving continuously along the queue of traffic ...and came up to your dads car at the last minute and tried to jump ahead of your dad, but misjudged it...
i agree hes old now, my dads the same, 83, and i dont want him onthe road either...but in this instance i think hes not to blame.
"I've always wryly smiled that car drivers get peeved because motorcyclists can legitimately make better progress than them. "
Sorry Flip Flop. I don't care a damn that bike riders make better progress. They take risks to do so and disregard road rules and cause accidents, probably as has happened here.
The fact is they put other road users in danger. If it was just their own well being they had no regard for then that's fine, but this isn't the case.
Not all motorcylists behave like this fortunately, but lots do.
Sorry Flip Flop. I don't care a damn that bike riders make better progress. They take risks to do so and disregard road rules and cause accidents, probably as has happened here.
The fact is they put other road users in danger. If it was just their own well being they had no regard for then that's fine, but this isn't the case.
Not all motorcylists behave like this fortunately, but lots do.
oh I wholeheartedly agree Lottie. There are some truly awful motorcyclists, and like any group, such as poor car drivers and poor cyclists, they give those of us who do drive/ride carefully a bad name.
Joko - you may think the motorcyclist is wrong, and certainly he is partially to blame, but case law - some very recent case law - does not agree with you.
Joko - you may think the motorcyclist is wrong, and certainly he is partially to blame, but case law - some very recent case law - does not agree with you.
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