Employer Took Pension

[tylers]

can an employer take money from your pension that they think you owe them? They have told me I was overpaid and I appealed this but didn't hear anything.I retired 2 weeks after this. They now seem to have taken thousands from my gratuity..Can they do this?

[factor-fiction]

Can you give more details.
Were you overpaid in terms of salary?
If so they are usually entitled to ask for it back but as the pension is paid by the trustees not the employer then I don't see how they are allowed to take it from the pension unless there is a term you signed up to

[tylers]

Thanks, it was a non contrib government pension. They say I was overpaid salary, I dispute this.Nothing in my terms regarding payback if I was overpaid. Had I remained in the job it was their intention to take the money back on a monthly basis.

[Buenchico]

Firstly, the employer most definitely hasn't committed theft. The Theft Act 1968 states:
"A person’s appropriation of property belonging to another is not to be regarded as dishonest . . .if he appropriates the property in the belief that he has in law the right to deprive the other of it, on behalf of himself or of a third person"
and
" “Property” includes money . . . "

So the matter is purely a civil one, not a criminal one. If they've definitely overpaid you they have every right to take the money. If they've not overpaid you then, clearly, they haven't. If you can't agree on the matter then only a court can decide the issue. If you're confident that you can show that you weren't overpaid, initiate court action through the official online procedure here:
https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

Chris

[EDDIE51]

You say you retired 2 weeks after the claim that you were overpaid, and that had you stayed on the money would have been recovered in monthly instalments.
Did you retire so as to avoid repaying the money? I ask because 2 weeks is not enough time to investigate the possible overpayment it could take months.
Can you be clearer about this was it pension or gratuity that they have taken?

[tylers]

Thanks Chris, I did read somewhere that they can take overpayments from wages only. Can't find it now. Agreed this is civil therefore, surely they have no right to act as judge and jury, especially when I challenged them.

[tylers]

Thanks Eddie, I didn't retire to avoid payment, my time was up. Sorry can't be clearer about wether they have hit the pension or grat. Money just arrived in bank today however, approx 10k light based on what they told me (in writing) I'd get.

[chrisgel]

I'm not aware that the "Truck Act"? has been repealed it may have been superceded. As far as I can recall it stated that nobody other than the revenue or courts could make deductions from an employees wages without the consent of the employee.

[Buenchico]

Chrisgel:
Deductions from wages are, indeed, often unlawful but not when they relate to earlier overpayments:
https://www.gov.uk/understanding-your-pay/deductions-from-your-pay

[tylers]

it has not been taken from wages, it appears to have been taken from pension/gratuity.

[chrisgel]

Thanks Chris. It has obviously changed then. I know from my experience as a Union rep in the 80's that if the company overpaid you they had to get your agreement to claw it back. (Providing of course that it was the companies fault)

[EDDIE51]

Looks like you have grounds for complaint , were you in a union? if so they will still help you even after retirement.

[Buenchico]

This is basically going over what I've already said but . . .

Anyone who thinks that you owe them money is within their rights to take that money from you. Since it's only a civil matter, the ONLY thing that you can (lawfully) do to get it back is to make a formal written demand for repayment and then, when you don't get your money back, seek a court order in your favour. Nothing else that anyone writes here can change that.

[EDDIE51]

If this has only happened today it could just be a mistake, have you contacted them to ask why this has happened ?

[tylers]

Thanks Eddie, not in union. Is there any reference I can quote to them? If I have been overpaid (dont think so) then surely this is a civil issue and they have no right to automatically hit my pen/grat.

[Buenchico]

>>>. . .and they have no right to automatically hit my pen/grat.

Oh yes they have. The source of the money is immaterial. If, for example, you'd got £10,000 lying on your coffee table when your former boss called round, he could simply pick it up and say "Thanks. That's what you owe us".

Similarly, if your boss was asked to take you your share of the winnings from a staff syndicate win on the lottery, he could take the £10,000 out of that.

Anyone who genuinely believes that you owe them money is entitled to take that money from wherever they can get at it.

[FredPuli43]

Careful, BC. If someone I owe money to is in my house and sees my property, he is not entitled to seize it. It doesn't matter whether that's a diamond brooch or cash. Otherwise we'd hardly need court-appointed bailiffs ( or courts, come to that). His seizing my property could amount to theft. He is taking property which does not belong to him but to me, with the intention of permanently depriving me of it. His only defence would be that he wasn't dishonest, in that he would have to plead that normal, reasonable, people applying their proper standards of honesty would not regard it as dishonest. That might be a bit of a stretch for them, since they wouldn't do it.

[factor-fiction]

Please can you clarify what this 'gratuity' is that you received and what the other 'pension payment' was that you received (after deduction of £10K)?

[Buenchico]

I maintain that Section 2 1(a) holds true, FP:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/crossheading/definition-of-theft

There have been plenty of examples of banks taking money from one account of a person, to pay off an overdraft from another account in their name, even when the funds in the first account didn't actually belong to the named account holder. (e.g. because he was holding the money on behalf of a club). The courts have ruled that the banks could lawfully take the money, leaving the clubs to sue the account holders.

[bednobs]

do the amounts add up? do they think they've overpaid you by the same amount your pension is light by?

[FredPuli43]

As to the civil law part, a person is entitled to sue for the recovery of monies paid by them under a fundamental mistake of fact. The person overpaid can hardly complain if they are overpaid by mistake and the employer deducts money from their subsequent wage payments.It's that or get a judgment against them for the whole sum and take the court's directions.

Don't quite see how this rough and ready approach applies to pensions but I can see how it can to bonus payments and gratuities for long service or the like.