Did Jesus Actually Exist?

[pretty_snowdrop]

I realise that the facts surrounding his birth and death are open to debate, however did he ever exist?

[solvitquick]

Hypo: Nice one and a nice mood-lightener!
Unfortunately I think any debate on religion is possibly a matter of life and death and we atheists should not try to destroy good and innocent religionists' beliefs although we rule the roost on ab.
Clivebeca: The Pope may or may not be religious. His job is to front one of the biggest commercial organisations in the world. However, given the "church" he fronts he cannot be catholic in the wide sense of the word.
Kind Regards,
SIQ.

[clivebeca]

Solvitquick - Yes, as the word also means 'all embracing', that's also incorrect, not only as a 'Commercial' Leader, but historically as a Military Leader - "1492 - Conquest of Paradise".

[starone]

Of course he did. His teachings would not have lasted for 2,000 years if he didn't. But the facts surrounding him have been grossly exaggerated. He certainly was not born of a virgin and he isn't the son of some fictional god. However, whoever he was, he was a very good teacher (or rabbi). Also his teachings were very good and he must have had a fascinating charisma which appealed to the masses. Must admit I am an atheist, but like to look at both sides of an argument.

[whiskeryron]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam

WR.

[naomi24]

Ron, I don’t think we can depend upon Islam for evidence. Islam was invented 600 years after Jesus is alleged to have lived, and the Koran relies heavily upon information and legends that were already in the public domain.

[beso]

Moreover it appears that at best Mohammed was suffering from delusional religious behavior due to psychoses brought on by epileptic seizures of his temporal lobes.

Indeed science suggest that many of the so called prophets are likely to be experiencing the same psychological abberation while others of course are mere charlatans.

[Hypognosis]

That has the ring of the unspeakable truth to it, beso. That all those visionaries, hearing the 'voice of God' or having 'visions' were, in fact, suffering what we would now recognise as schizophrenia, with auditory and/or visual hallucinations.

Eating bread made from grain or flour contaminated with ergot fungus has also been implicated but I don't know if the symptoms match the classic 'visionary' experience.

Makes you think twice about what to spend your life following.

[solvitquick]

beso & hypo,
I agree although I am unqualified to offer a detailed analysis. I can't quote sources but I have read many times that Paul of Tarsus was epileptic. Naomi is very good on such documentation and could well clarify on this.
I have proposed many times on this site that those who believed that they heard voices from "god" would today be classed as mentally ill.
SIQ.

[solvitquick]

Dear Hypo.
Your reference to ergot alkaloids is extremely credible.
I don't know how old you are but this was John Allegro's interpretation of his part of the Dead Sea Scrolls translation. I atttended one of his public lectures and went on to buy his book "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross". In this he ascribed a great deal of the origins of Christianity to an Essene Amanita mushroom based cult.
I found it went OTT insofar as it seemed more Allegro than just scroll translation and dumped it about 5-10 years later. For me, his great contribution was his objection to the delay in the Scrollls' publication if we are to believe all of what they eventually contained in a full and true manner.
But if you derived your alkaloid theory alone i.e. bread contamination, that's brilliant.
Re epilepsy and relious thoughts please see below.
Kindest Regards,
SIQ.

[solvitquick]

Dear Hypo and beso,
In an earlier post I mentioned Paul of Tarsus' alleged epilepsy. I have often pondered whether an attack was deliberately induced by others using rapid flashing lights by using shiny sun-light reflecting objects in his direction (road to Damascus etc).
However having known a few epileptics whether suffering "grand or petit mal" I am not aware of this condition causing them any fundamental changes in their attitude to life, beliefs or inducing delusions.
That's where the alkaloid drug theory just might fit in.
The abuse of many drugs or withdawal from them can induce "epilepsiform" attacks.
However beso seems to know his stuff and I would genuinely welcome any of his comments, particularly as my knowledge is restricted to today's era when epileptic-control drug's exist particularly for "petit mal" which is now rendered a "minor" complaint.
Sorry to sufferes or relatives if my use of the word "minor" hurts but I really doubt it. It's still obviously anxiety-making though.
SIQ.

[Hypognosis]

@SIQ

No, the ergotism hypothesis was not an original idea of mine. It's something I recall from way back in the 3-channel era so was most likely a Horizon/World About Us type documentary.

I hasten to add that the dosage had to be exactly right for a person to undergo a 'trip' with visions and come out of the experience with no other ill effects.

I think I looked it up on Wikipedia, more recently and it describes symptoms of ergot poisoning ranging from vomiting to outright fatality, with the descriptions largely drawn from the historical record. It was one of life's hazards from biblical times all the way up to 20th century, where grain storage had improved to the point that it never got damp enough for outbreaks of the fungus.

[solvitquick]

Dear Hypo,
Yup sounds about the right era for Allegro and the Dead Sea Scrolls but was also the era of illegal drug experimentation - e.g. LSD. Maybe a waring prog.
But 3-channel-only era? - I may well be plumb wrong!
Ages ago I remember someone saying he took LSD and hid in a wardrobe 'cos he thought he was a tomato and people wanted to eat him.
Anyway ty.
Those were great days - for TV - not crazy drug taking!
Kindest Regards,
SIQ.

[solvitquick]

"warning" not "waring"
SIQ.

[littlepioneer]

Well for that it takes a belief in the Bible and in God. Many religions believe that he did in fact exist. In my personal observation of the scriptures i would have to say yes he did exist and he is the only way we have a chance to live an everlasting life in the near future. John 17:3 says this means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent Jesus Christ. So if we take in knowledge of him and of the True God then that everlasting life we pray about will become a reality