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Catholics Like Black Americans?
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Spokesman for the Catholic Church in Scotland, Peter Kearney, today claimed that Scottish Catholics are vicitimised like Black Americans, (his words), in 1950's pre civil rights America.
I thought initially of ignoring this fool, rather than give his remarks any sortof creedence, but his pronouncement defies belief. He claims that Catholics may have to "turn their backs on faith schools and shun public statements of religion". Quite why anyone needs to make public statements about their religion defeats me, and isn't it time we moved on from separating little children on the grounds of religion?
To compare Catholics in modern Scotland with the grievous wrongs and suffering of blacks in 1950's and 1960's America is not only a gross insult, it is ridiculous, although he pre-empts any criticism by saying "I am certain many voices will join this debate, bringing with them a blame the victim mindset. In much the same way as America's black citizens in an earlier era were forced to straighten their hair and whiten their complexions in order to minimise differences with the white majority, many will surely urge Scottish Catholics to stop sending their children to Catholic schools or making public declarations of faith". Oh the self pity? Very good Peter, trying to negate any constructive argument before we even start, but it won't wash. What he is really doing is saying "How dare anyone have a reasoned argument or disagree with me in any way and, if you do, you're a rotten little bigot". Sorry pal, that's not happening.
Catholics do not have separate buses and toilets in Scotland, and they do have a vote. There is legislation to prevent job discrimination, and they are not rounded up and hung from trees, a la Alabama. However, they do partake in the separate schooling from the era you criticise, the only connection between now and then. The slight difference is that we separated kids by colour then, now it's the practice of parting them bsed on outdated religions.
Isn't it time we rid ourselves of any/all connection between religion(s) and state/schools?
In fact, we probably soon will, mainly because of idiotic drivel like this.
I thought initially of ignoring this fool, rather than give his remarks any sortof creedence, but his pronouncement defies belief. He claims that Catholics may have to "turn their backs on faith schools and shun public statements of religion". Quite why anyone needs to make public statements about their religion defeats me, and isn't it time we moved on from separating little children on the grounds of religion?
To compare Catholics in modern Scotland with the grievous wrongs and suffering of blacks in 1950's and 1960's America is not only a gross insult, it is ridiculous, although he pre-empts any criticism by saying "I am certain many voices will join this debate, bringing with them a blame the victim mindset. In much the same way as America's black citizens in an earlier era were forced to straighten their hair and whiten their complexions in order to minimise differences with the white majority, many will surely urge Scottish Catholics to stop sending their children to Catholic schools or making public declarations of faith". Oh the self pity? Very good Peter, trying to negate any constructive argument before we even start, but it won't wash. What he is really doing is saying "How dare anyone have a reasoned argument or disagree with me in any way and, if you do, you're a rotten little bigot". Sorry pal, that's not happening.
Catholics do not have separate buses and toilets in Scotland, and they do have a vote. There is legislation to prevent job discrimination, and they are not rounded up and hung from trees, a la Alabama. However, they do partake in the separate schooling from the era you criticise, the only connection between now and then. The slight difference is that we separated kids by colour then, now it's the practice of parting them bsed on outdated religions.
Isn't it time we rid ourselves of any/all connection between religion(s) and state/schools?
In fact, we probably soon will, mainly because of idiotic drivel like this.
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the point being that they weren't just discriminated against in 50's, 60's, but long long before. One should also look at what constitutes slavery, they may have been emancipated, but what jobs, life did many have, not good ones. The army had separate units for black soldiers in WW1 and WW2, no white soldier was allowed to associate with them, must of come of something of a surprise when the black soldiers landed here and were mostly warmly welcomed by the British.
Whilst I do tend to agree with what you are saying Duncer about his comments being ' overkill', there are numerous sectarian incidents in Scotland and more sectarian murders there every year than race related murders ( since 2000 anyway when they started keeping proper records of such things). Also there is some questionable practice regarding the keeping of that information or rather the lack of keeping it.
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As I said earlier NOX, "There is still discrimination in Scotland, but it is greatly reduced, and certainly not of pre-civil rights proportions", and I would never try to state otherwise. There is still a distance to be travelled, but Peter Kearney is certainly not helping, and he appears to want things on his terms only.
However, I cannot agree with the contention in your link that "the majority of sectarian crimes were against Roman Catholics around Orange Order marches," because of both the contributors, (including an "insider"), and my own personal experience. I've been to several marches over here, mainly out of curiosity, and the naked sectarianism of the hangers-on was very distasteful indeed, and much worse than in our wee country. However, the marches were all well/heavily policed and no riots ensued, unless you count drunken idiots making distasteful remarks. Things like this should be challenged but, as with many things, there is a time and a place, and I'd rather not tell them they're wrong, I'd prefer to tell then WHY they are wrong.
I am part of the reporting process and it is deeply flawed, for example, all allegations are reported. However, I find that reports are almost equal at my end of things, and a lot of sectarianism stems from not actually knowing what constitutes sectarianism. The same is true of racism. One guy was baffled when I informed him that calling me "A Fcuking Irish bastard" was racist and he even came back to me and said "It can't be racist - we're both the same colour."
There are indeed murders attributed to sectarianism, some wrongly. One high profile case not to long ago centred round a fine young man and Celtic supporter who was stabbed on his way home after doing charity work. This ran in the press as a sectarian murder for a long time, even after conviction, but the guy who stabbed him was a fellow Celitc supporter. It was a tragic waste of a very promising life indeed,, and no less heinous for that, but it is also the result of a sensationalist press greedy for titbits revolving around sectarianism.
However, I cannot agree with the contention in your link that "the majority of sectarian crimes were against Roman Catholics around Orange Order marches," because of both the contributors, (including an "insider"), and my own personal experience. I've been to several marches over here, mainly out of curiosity, and the naked sectarianism of the hangers-on was very distasteful indeed, and much worse than in our wee country. However, the marches were all well/heavily policed and no riots ensued, unless you count drunken idiots making distasteful remarks. Things like this should be challenged but, as with many things, there is a time and a place, and I'd rather not tell them they're wrong, I'd prefer to tell then WHY they are wrong.
I am part of the reporting process and it is deeply flawed, for example, all allegations are reported. However, I find that reports are almost equal at my end of things, and a lot of sectarianism stems from not actually knowing what constitutes sectarianism. The same is true of racism. One guy was baffled when I informed him that calling me "A Fcuking Irish bastard" was racist and he even came back to me and said "It can't be racist - we're both the same colour."
There are indeed murders attributed to sectarianism, some wrongly. One high profile case not to long ago centred round a fine young man and Celtic supporter who was stabbed on his way home after doing charity work. This ran in the press as a sectarian murder for a long time, even after conviction, but the guy who stabbed him was a fellow Celitc supporter. It was a tragic waste of a very promising life indeed,, and no less heinous for that, but it is also the result of a sensationalist press greedy for titbits revolving around sectarianism.
"The army had separate units for black soldiers in WW1 and WW2, no white soldier was allowed to associate with them"
Em, reference your earlier post, I worked in the Middle East during the first Gulf War. We were regulars at one of the only two pubs in Al Ain before the war started and, when the American troops arrived I was astonished. It was early 1992 and they came into our wee boozer and self-segregated, white guys to one part of the pub and coloured guys to another, in 1992????
As was our wont, we often headed down to Samanthas, the night club in the basement of the hotel, and it was exactly the same when they joined us down there.
Em, reference your earlier post, I worked in the Middle East during the first Gulf War. We were regulars at one of the only two pubs in Al Ain before the war started and, when the American troops arrived I was astonished. It was early 1992 and they came into our wee boozer and self-segregated, white guys to one part of the pub and coloured guys to another, in 1992????
As was our wont, we often headed down to Samanthas, the night club in the basement of the hotel, and it was exactly the same when they joined us down there.
I think sectarianism is probably more common in Scotland than reported however I have little personal experience of Scotland so can't really say for sure, but my daughter visited there (Glasgow) with her mother and her mother's new boyfriend over New Year and she found the place very welcoming but her mother's boyfriend did say it's fine to say you're mother is Jewish just don't mention your father being Catholic- so draw your own conclusions. I agree though that hysteria on either side is really not helpful.
As a whole I would say sectarianism is probably more prevalent against Catholics in Scotland, given the breakdown of perceived religions in the country, (Catholics sitting about 15% at the last census). However, Glasgow is probably the reverse in that it is every bit as bad, if not worse towards Protestants. My nephew was taken off certain jobs when he worked as a delivery driver, mainly because of his thick Belfast accent, especially when down to go to places like Royston. There are no go areas for both sides in Glasgow and I find it every bit as bad as home when it comes to attitudes, if not worse.
Having said that, things are improving rapidly in many places, although I attribute that as much to secularism as anything else. My bug bear is the assumption that I must have a religion because I support a certain football team.
Having said that, things are improving rapidly in many places, although I attribute that as much to secularism as anything else. My bug bear is the assumption that I must have a religion because I support a certain football team.
Hiya Duncer - The best and most thought-provoking thread I have read here in ages. I'm from Glasgow as you know and I witness both sides of the 'argument' virtually on a daily basis. I don't know if it will ever be resolved but you never know, here's hoping. Good luck and a Happy New Year from the loony "One Team In Glasgow" crowd - you know who I mean :-). I liked your first reply (20.07 9th Jan 2013).
Wharton, good to hear from you. Fingers crossed for the Harry Wraggs, the only team that insult both queen and pope in the same song. I'm worried about Morton rather than the Pars, but I reckon you'll still do it.
I live in fear of the day the Kafflicks and Proddies get together and gang up on the atheists.
I live in fear of the day the Kafflicks and Proddies get together and gang up on the atheists.
The "Kafflicks/Proddies" thing made me laugh, but now you've got ME worried, I've never thought of that :-). I can still get involved in :-
Q Who do you support?
A Partick Thistle
Q Who do you REALLY support?
A I've just told you, Partick Thistle
Q If Celtic were playing Rangers who would you want to win?
A I wouldn't be interested unless the outcome affected Partick Thistle in some way.
Q Whidgy mean?
A Go away (or words to that effect)
Still, here's hoping :-)
Q Who do you support?
A Partick Thistle
Q Who do you REALLY support?
A I've just told you, Partick Thistle
Q If Celtic were playing Rangers who would you want to win?
A I wouldn't be interested unless the outcome affected Partick Thistle in some way.
Q Whidgy mean?
A Go away (or words to that effect)
Still, here's hoping :-)
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