ChatterBank3 mins ago
Help with death and the law please
I would be really grateful for any advice from anyone please?
My dad (rather eccentric, married 8 times) recently passed away from cancer. He was living with a partner since his diagnosis (about 1 year) but not married. They did however have wedding bands blessed in a church. My dad (and admittedly me too) trusted this woman totally. Just before his death he told me he'd like to be cremated. He explained he already had a policy in place to cover his funeral costs and some other smaller policies. He also described a few other things that would be divided amoungst us, his children. On his passing, we agreed to allow his partner to make the funeral arrangements but quickly discovered she was turning it into a farce and what she wanted it to be, claiming it was at my fathers request. She also stated that he left a will (unfinished) entrusting her to handle his affairs and distribute his belongigs according to his wishes. However, my dad had only been concerned that he never recieved resuscitation so never got to give any details in his will prior to his sudden death.
Our problem now is that the partner refused to discuss the funeral arrangements she made and refused our input. She has now cut off contact with us. We are his only surviving relatives. I intend to go down to where my father is tomorrow but don't know where i stand legally or what i should do straight away in order to take control of the arrangements and of his property? Help please?
My dad (rather eccentric, married 8 times) recently passed away from cancer. He was living with a partner since his diagnosis (about 1 year) but not married. They did however have wedding bands blessed in a church. My dad (and admittedly me too) trusted this woman totally. Just before his death he told me he'd like to be cremated. He explained he already had a policy in place to cover his funeral costs and some other smaller policies. He also described a few other things that would be divided amoungst us, his children. On his passing, we agreed to allow his partner to make the funeral arrangements but quickly discovered she was turning it into a farce and what she wanted it to be, claiming it was at my fathers request. She also stated that he left a will (unfinished) entrusting her to handle his affairs and distribute his belongigs according to his wishes. However, my dad had only been concerned that he never recieved resuscitation so never got to give any details in his will prior to his sudden death.
Our problem now is that the partner refused to discuss the funeral arrangements she made and refused our input. She has now cut off contact with us. We are his only surviving relatives. I intend to go down to where my father is tomorrow but don't know where i stand legally or what i should do straight away in order to take control of the arrangements and of his property? Help please?
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I'll deal with the 'will' first:
An 'unfinished will' isn't a will. It's just a piece of paper that has no legal status whatsoever.
With regard to your father's estate, unless it's very small you'll need to apply for 'letters of administration' to enable you to distribute it according to the intestacy rules. You, or any of your siblings, can make the application. His partner can't.
Without a will, your father's estate MUST (by law) be distributed in accordance with the intestacy rules, even if everyone agrees that your father's wishes were different. That means that your father's partner will get nothing (Of course, there's nothing to prevent the recipients from voluntarily giving all or part of their share to someone else, in order to comply with your father's wishes, but they can't be compelled to do so).
Funeral arrangements are less clear cut. Even if your father had put his wishes in writing (whether that be in a will or elsewhere), and pre-paid for his funeral, those arrangements aren't binding upon whoever arranges the funeral. It's simply a case of "he who pays the piper calls the tune". Also anyone is free to arrange a funeral as long as they pay for it. (A complete stranger could walk in off the street and arrange a Pagan or Voodoo funeral for your father. It would be perfectly legal).
That previous paragraph might appear to take control of the funeral arrangements away from you and your siblings but it should be noted that whoever organises a funeral has to pay for it. While you'll be able to pay for it out of your father's estate (because you'll hold letters of administration) his partner won't be able to. (i.e. if she continues to make the arrangements without your cooperation, she could end up paying the funeral bill out of her own pocket).
Chris
An 'unfinished will' isn't a will. It's just a piece of paper that has no legal status whatsoever.
With regard to your father's estate, unless it's very small you'll need to apply for 'letters of administration' to enable you to distribute it according to the intestacy rules. You, or any of your siblings, can make the application. His partner can't.
Without a will, your father's estate MUST (by law) be distributed in accordance with the intestacy rules, even if everyone agrees that your father's wishes were different. That means that your father's partner will get nothing (Of course, there's nothing to prevent the recipients from voluntarily giving all or part of their share to someone else, in order to comply with your father's wishes, but they can't be compelled to do so).
Funeral arrangements are less clear cut. Even if your father had put his wishes in writing (whether that be in a will or elsewhere), and pre-paid for his funeral, those arrangements aren't binding upon whoever arranges the funeral. It's simply a case of "he who pays the piper calls the tune". Also anyone is free to arrange a funeral as long as they pay for it. (A complete stranger could walk in off the street and arrange a Pagan or Voodoo funeral for your father. It would be perfectly legal).
That previous paragraph might appear to take control of the funeral arrangements away from you and your siblings but it should be noted that whoever organises a funeral has to pay for it. While you'll be able to pay for it out of your father's estate (because you'll hold letters of administration) his partner won't be able to. (i.e. if she continues to make the arrangements without your cooperation, she could end up paying the funeral bill out of her own pocket).
Chris
Hi Chris, Thankyou so much for your reply.
The main panic for us at the moment is whether we can stop and take control of the arrangements that she has made? Can we go to the undertakers as his only surviving relatives and demand that they take directions from us? Can we demand that they reinburse the cost of his policy that he paid for if they refuse and make her then pay the bill for her arrangements? (assuming that would force their/her hand?)
Regarding his property, my dad wasn't one for accumalating much to be honest. It was more the principal and that we wanted access to his personal belongings. Yes, he did tell me he had a few small policies and a timeshare property but only she has the information and the paperwork at the house. Can she be made to hand it all over? Even down to the car he owned? I was really only wanting a lock of his hair but her behaviour has made me want to put my foot down and make sure my dads possessions go to their rightly place. Thanks for your help x
The main panic for us at the moment is whether we can stop and take control of the arrangements that she has made? Can we go to the undertakers as his only surviving relatives and demand that they take directions from us? Can we demand that they reinburse the cost of his policy that he paid for if they refuse and make her then pay the bill for her arrangements? (assuming that would force their/her hand?)
Regarding his property, my dad wasn't one for accumalating much to be honest. It was more the principal and that we wanted access to his personal belongings. Yes, he did tell me he had a few small policies and a timeshare property but only she has the information and the paperwork at the house. Can she be made to hand it all over? Even down to the car he owned? I was really only wanting a lock of his hair but her behaviour has made me want to put my foot down and make sure my dads possessions go to their rightly place. Thanks for your help x
Proops, you and your children are his next of kin - she's not. I would advise you to see a solicitor - hard while you are mourning you dad, but you need legal advice IMO, she can't shut up shop and take everything from you. If your father was intestate then your father's estate certainly can't be managed by his partner. Plese go see someone tomorrow, get your position clear. You can always ask the undertakers who is paying for the funeral, see what their understanding is - I imagine they have arrangements for sending bills direct to an insurance company but someone still has to sign the papers....
Thankyou boxtops xx
My sister and i was just discussing that. She managed to get control quickly because the distance apart that we live (and of course, we totally trusted her). After leaving the hospital we have had limited telephone contact other than her telling us what funeral arrangements she had made and then refusing calls etc once we aired our concerns. I'm angry with myself for not discussing it deeper with my dad to save all of this.
My sister and i was just discussing that. She managed to get control quickly because the distance apart that we live (and of course, we totally trusted her). After leaving the hospital we have had limited telephone contact other than her telling us what funeral arrangements she had made and then refusing calls etc once we aired our concerns. I'm angry with myself for not discussing it deeper with my dad to save all of this.
Funeral directors, not unnaturally, aren't too keen on getting stuck in the middle or arguments. (But I'm sure that you won't be the first person to face such difficulties).
I suggest having a discrete word with the funeral director to find out exactly what it was that your father paid for. If he simply paid a sum to cover non-specified funeral arrangements it might be hard to challenge any arrangements that have been put in place using that money. But if he specifically paid for (for example), a cremation with two cars and a jazz band, then it would appear that anything other than that would have to be paid for by the person arranging the funeral. (i.e. his partner couldn't change that to a burial, with four cars and a barbershop choir unless she paid for everything).
Everything that belonged to your father now forms part of his estate. If he'd left a will then the executors would have immediate (but limited) access his estate to deal with any urgent financial matters (such as settling bills). With no will, nobody can touch his estate until such time as they've acquired letters of administration. The only exception would be if the total value of the estate (including any property owned, the car, the timeshare, bank accounts, shares, etc) came to less than £5000. Even then, it's often wisest to obtain letters of administration in order to prove to the relevant people (such as banks or people interested in buying the timeshare) that you have the legal right to control the assets.
Chris
I suggest having a discrete word with the funeral director to find out exactly what it was that your father paid for. If he simply paid a sum to cover non-specified funeral arrangements it might be hard to challenge any arrangements that have been put in place using that money. But if he specifically paid for (for example), a cremation with two cars and a jazz band, then it would appear that anything other than that would have to be paid for by the person arranging the funeral. (i.e. his partner couldn't change that to a burial, with four cars and a barbershop choir unless she paid for everything).
Everything that belonged to your father now forms part of his estate. If he'd left a will then the executors would have immediate (but limited) access his estate to deal with any urgent financial matters (such as settling bills). With no will, nobody can touch his estate until such time as they've acquired letters of administration. The only exception would be if the total value of the estate (including any property owned, the car, the timeshare, bank accounts, shares, etc) came to less than £5000. Even then, it's often wisest to obtain letters of administration in order to prove to the relevant people (such as banks or people interested in buying the timeshare) that you have the legal right to control the assets.
Chris
Thanks for your reply.
It's up to you as to whether to involve a solicitor to deal with any disputes with your father's partner, but you most definitely do NOT need a solicitor to apply for letters of administration. (It's an unnecessary expense. The form is easy to complete, the interview is just a simple formality and Probate Registry staff are, in my experience, always exceptionally helpful). Simply contact your nearest Probate Registry for guidance:
http://www.hmcourts-s...er/forms/pa4_e_10.pdf
Chris
It's up to you as to whether to involve a solicitor to deal with any disputes with your father's partner, but you most definitely do NOT need a solicitor to apply for letters of administration. (It's an unnecessary expense. The form is easy to complete, the interview is just a simple formality and Probate Registry staff are, in my experience, always exceptionally helpful). Simply contact your nearest Probate Registry for guidance:
http://www.hmcourts-s...er/forms/pa4_e_10.pdf
Chris
Funeral cant be organised without a Death Certificate and undertakers cannot collect your father from hospital without the green release document (also needed for Death Certficate), signed by doctors.
If you collect above 'green form' from hospital before his partner, she will be scuppered re his funeral.
If you collect above 'green form' from hospital before his partner, she will be scuppered re his funeral.
UPDATE:
We managed to have the girlfriends arranged funeral cancelled. My dad did write a hurried will 2 days before he died. He'd discussed his assets (not that there many) with both his girlfriend and i present. Therefore all he wrote on the will was the both of us as Executors, and that he left 'all his wordly goods to her to be disposed of as previously arranged (specific bequests)'. He unfortunately did not write what we had discussed. I feel terrible for him because he totally trusted her, as did i, and didn't feel the need to write it specifically as we had all discussed it in my lounge..
I have since had my dads funeral. I have been sent the bill. She refuses all contact (can she if i'm down as co-executor?) and has been contacting banks, insurers etc. She has been dispoing of his items too. I did get a reply email from her where she confirms my dads bequests discussed between the 3 of us but adds ' however, we had a further conversation where he gave them to me'. Surely a court would not accept her so-called later conversation with no-one present over a conversation held with my dad and both named executors? I did see a solicitor by the way, the fees were way out of my budget. Wasn't very helpful either (unless i was willingto put down £10,000 before he'd consider looking at injunctions etc). I want all my dads personal belongings (clothes shoes etc). I wasn't bothered about anything else. Obviously now bills are appearing i'm going to have to look at other things. What should i do? A court order to ask her to provide details of estate etc as the other executor, or injunction to stop her disposing of things? Sorry for all the questions but i'm stuck and really don't know what to do next. Shes in a financial position to afford legal help i think. Thanks everyone x
We managed to have the girlfriends arranged funeral cancelled. My dad did write a hurried will 2 days before he died. He'd discussed his assets (not that there many) with both his girlfriend and i present. Therefore all he wrote on the will was the both of us as Executors, and that he left 'all his wordly goods to her to be disposed of as previously arranged (specific bequests)'. He unfortunately did not write what we had discussed. I feel terrible for him because he totally trusted her, as did i, and didn't feel the need to write it specifically as we had all discussed it in my lounge..
I have since had my dads funeral. I have been sent the bill. She refuses all contact (can she if i'm down as co-executor?) and has been contacting banks, insurers etc. She has been dispoing of his items too. I did get a reply email from her where she confirms my dads bequests discussed between the 3 of us but adds ' however, we had a further conversation where he gave them to me'. Surely a court would not accept her so-called later conversation with no-one present over a conversation held with my dad and both named executors? I did see a solicitor by the way, the fees were way out of my budget. Wasn't very helpful either (unless i was willingto put down £10,000 before he'd consider looking at injunctions etc). I want all my dads personal belongings (clothes shoes etc). I wasn't bothered about anything else. Obviously now bills are appearing i'm going to have to look at other things. What should i do? A court order to ask her to provide details of estate etc as the other executor, or injunction to stop her disposing of things? Sorry for all the questions but i'm stuck and really don't know what to do next. Shes in a financial position to afford legal help i think. Thanks everyone x
Did your father's total estate come to more than £5000? If so, your father's partner needs a grant of probate before she can, as an executor, start distributing his estate. She can't get that grant unless she's got your signature on the application (unless you sign away your own right to act as executor, which you seem unlikely to do).
Contact the Probate registry and get hold of the application for probate form, or download it from here:
http://www.hmcourts-s...inder/forms/pa1_e.pdf
Fill in as much as you can and then insist that your father's partner helps you to complete the application. (Point out that's in her own interest to do so)>
Chris
Contact the Probate registry and get hold of the application for probate form, or download it from here:
http://www.hmcourts-s...inder/forms/pa1_e.pdf
Fill in as much as you can and then insist that your father's partner helps you to complete the application. (Point out that's in her own interest to do so)>
Chris
Thankyou Chris xx
To be honest, due to her refusing contact, i can only guess the value of his estate. I've had access to absolutely nothing! He told me he had a couple of insurance policies to make sure there was no debt left behind, and of course he had his timeshare and car (jaguar). It may be above that value? But wouldn't i need to list items for a probate application? And then she refuses all contact, so how could i get her to sign? Is the court order/injunction route no good? I thought as co-executors she would have to share all information with me? Soory for being so useless on this. Its been absolute hell! x
To be honest, due to her refusing contact, i can only guess the value of his estate. I've had access to absolutely nothing! He told me he had a couple of insurance policies to make sure there was no debt left behind, and of course he had his timeshare and car (jaguar). It may be above that value? But wouldn't i need to list items for a probate application? And then she refuses all contact, so how could i get her to sign? Is the court order/injunction route no good? I thought as co-executors she would have to share all information with me? Soory for being so useless on this. Its been absolute hell! x
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