Catch 22

[Khandro]

What did we say before we said for example, "It's a Catch 22" situation" ?

[Quizmonster]

Phrases such as "It's a non-starter" covered much the same idea...ie that there was no prospect of finding a solution or getting around a difficulty.
In the book of that name, Catch 22 was the concept that the only way a pilot could get out of flying missions against the enemy was that he was mentally unfit. However, such a request would inevitably be dismissed, because he was clearly bright enough mentally to know that these missions put his life in danger, so he clearly wasn't mentally unfit!

[Ethel]

Heads I win, tails you lose
It's a no-win situation

[dot.hawkes]

damned if you do damned if you don't

[jno]

I think 'no-win' is more recent than catch 22. Probably just something like 'you can't win'. I don't think there was a 'situation' phrase.

[joggerjayne]

Useless trivia ... when Catch 22 was submitted to the publishers, Joseph Heller had named it "Catch 18".

[Khandro]

I think quizmonster souds near, but I'm not sure how old "It's a non-starter" is. Ethel's two statements seem self-contradictory. Thanks anyway.

[Quizmonster]

I've no idea exactly how old non-starter is either, Khandro, but we have been tagging 'non' as a prefix to nouns since the 15th century, one of the earliest recorded being non-achievement. The word is commonly used in racing situations to refer to a horse which, for one reason or another, does not participate in the race it was entered for. Horse-racing has been with us for a heck of a long time, so that was my justification for imagining, at least, that it was older than Heller's novel.

[heathfield]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

[Khandro]

Thank you Quizmaster, but somehow the meaning encapsulated in "Catch 22" implies the desire to do something, (or in the case of the novel - not do something) and being frustrated. Whereas I feel "non-starter" states a more passive role, n'est pas?

[Quizmonster]

Maybe not so passive for a potential gambler, Khandro, who might well say, "I put a score on Jiminy Cricket to win the 3.20 at Catterick today, but the bloody thing was a non-starter!" (Non-runner might also be used in these circumstances, of course.)
The punter, in other words, positively - not passively - desired something to happen but it didn't. I can't really see a great deal of difference between him and Yossarian, other than the latter's desire for it not< to happen.
But what the hey! I'll leave it at that.

[Quizmonster]

Oh! I meant to add above that I'm Quizmonster, not Quizmaster. I mention it only because there is an AnswerBanker called by the latter name.

[Khandro]

Sorry about the name Quizmonster. I don't wish to be tedious, but you are defining the PUNTER, - who probably is non-passive, (though he would get his stake returned) The non-starter is the HORSE, who may be just standing in a field somewhere and not feeling like bothering today!

[Quizmonster]

But in the novel, the non-starter is the request to opt out of flying, not the pilot who does that. This time, I really will call it a day or we could be here forever. Cheers

[Playbill]

Ethel:

Heads I win, tails you lose IS a winning situation -for the person stating it.