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Why there should be a secular state...
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7233335 .stm
Rowan Williams = Twunt.
One rule for all, thank you, or else I'm going to start demanding separate atheist-friendly laws.
Rowan Williams = Twunt.
One rule for all, thank you, or else I'm going to start demanding separate atheist-friendly laws.
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Naomi- That is the only problem. All the western world want is to agree every one with them. If people don't they are labelled un-civilised. I have had this debate with wizard as well that why is it that whatever the west believ in is civilised. I do not want to go into details as you can see my earlier replies. As far as the veil is concerned, you would find ten ties better reply than mine here at this link.
http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm
And see common questions asked and question number 3 is about veil. You did not answer my question about double standards. Don't you think there are double standards in the nations who have a say in the world, or simply say UNO.
http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm
And see common questions asked and question number 3 is about veil. You did not answer my question about double standards. Don't you think there are double standards in the nations who have a say in the world, or simply say UNO.
Keyplus, it doesn't answer my question. Muslim women aren't obliged by religion to cover their faces completely, so my question was why do they choose to do that, and are those that do really trying to integrate into British society? Can you please answer the question simply, without leading me into a whole diatribe about Islam?
It seems that Islam suffers from the same problem as the west. We all want everyone to agree with us. However, where civilised behavour is concerned, I believe the west has the edge on Islam, and for very obvious reasons.
Yes, I do believe there are double standards amongst politicians - and that includes politicians of every culture.
Keyplus, can I ask you a question that is meant sincerely and is asked with all due respect. If you feel so strongly about Islam and its disagreements with the west, why do you choose to live here? Why don't you choose to live in Pakistan, or in another Islamic nation, where surely the life would suit you better?
It seems that Islam suffers from the same problem as the west. We all want everyone to agree with us. However, where civilised behavour is concerned, I believe the west has the edge on Islam, and for very obvious reasons.
Yes, I do believe there are double standards amongst politicians - and that includes politicians of every culture.
Keyplus, can I ask you a question that is meant sincerely and is asked with all due respect. If you feel so strongly about Islam and its disagreements with the west, why do you choose to live here? Why don't you choose to live in Pakistan, or in another Islamic nation, where surely the life would suit you better?
I have to say that it seems to me that in this discussion Keyplus has merely articulated understanding of the causes of suicide bombing, not supported it.
A very good (but terribly titled) read is 'Make Terrorism History', which is an analysis of why people become suicide bombers, and it pretty much agrees with what Keyplus says.
Personally, I think it's vital to understand the psychology of terrorism. The amount of boll0cks that has been written about al Qaeda by Westerners who simply cannot cope with an enemy that doesn't fit into their pre-concieved ideas of how one should look is incredible.
Do you know that the way al Qaeda is defined by the west is not shaped by what it is, but by the legal classifications that were available to describe 'enemies' and into which it was forced to fit, despite not actually fitting any of them?
It's been exploited by rightwingers to give the impression that al Quada is some highly organised global network whose evil tentacles reach into every corner of our world and that we need to be scared, scared, scared...
It's also undoubtedly correct that the West applies standards to others it would never expect or accept of itself.
A very good (but terribly titled) read is 'Make Terrorism History', which is an analysis of why people become suicide bombers, and it pretty much agrees with what Keyplus says.
Personally, I think it's vital to understand the psychology of terrorism. The amount of boll0cks that has been written about al Qaeda by Westerners who simply cannot cope with an enemy that doesn't fit into their pre-concieved ideas of how one should look is incredible.
Do you know that the way al Qaeda is defined by the west is not shaped by what it is, but by the legal classifications that were available to describe 'enemies' and into which it was forced to fit, despite not actually fitting any of them?
It's been exploited by rightwingers to give the impression that al Quada is some highly organised global network whose evil tentacles reach into every corner of our world and that we need to be scared, scared, scared...
It's also undoubtedly correct that the West applies standards to others it would never expect or accept of itself.
When did I say that I do not codemn the terrorists. I said I do condemn all kind of terroism. I remember once on TV someone asked George Galloway to condemn Muslim Terrorists and he said the same thing that I condemn all kind of terrorism, but still the presenter carried on asking about Muslims. When you say all that covers everything. But people here as I said before wants you to say what they like to say or as they likes hearing it. Waldo thanks for the comments here. Naomi. If a woman covers here face she does it by her choice. Did you ask anyone who takes her clothes off by choice why she did it. About me living here, You may not agree with it but We believe whole Universe belongs to God. You can go and live any where. And Islam is not only for Muslims, We believe it is not just a Religion, It is a way of life, whoever would adapt would benefit. You do not have to agree with me, but Allah said that it is ever Muslims duty to atleast convey the message of Islam, because on the day of judgement that would be the first question asked "If you received the message or not". After that it is upto the non believers if they want to carry on. And that time would come I have no doubt about that whatsoever. What else did you ask?
Naomi - Yes you other question. I do feel strongly about Islam because Islam is the only Riligion which answers all the question. If you look, on media there is record level of Propaganda (there is a history of that) but lets say since 9/11. And do you know since then there are more and more people reverting to Islam. Because like a bee traped behind a glass window does not matter how much you bang your head against the wall, you have to use the right way to succeed. Why I should live in Muslim country. Perhaps in one sense, If the same thing those people had said who ere in Arab just before Muhammed (pbuh) then they would still be burying their newly born daughters alive, Islam has librated the humanity, Agree or not. Otherwise answer the same question which I asked earlier. More and more people (with top knowledge about religion and science) are becoming Muslims. All of them are blind or what? So when the time come people in Europe would appreciate that Muslims came here to show them the way. 100% people never even agreed to the prophet (pbuh) so I am not expecting anyone to agree with me. Even to Muhammed (pbuh) Allah said in Quran that your duty was only to convey the message.
Keyplus, my apologies if I misunderstood you, but you did appear to justify the actions of terrorists rather than condemn them.
You've answered my question about women who wear veils by talking about people taking their clothes off, and that's no answer at all. I've asked the question several times, and quite honestly, I feel you are deliberately avoiding the issue. It's a simple enough question after all. I know they do it by choice, and that's the point. They choose to do it, so are they really trying to integrate?
In answer to your question, yes, I do think those who convert to Islam are blind. In my opinion, no religion liberates humanity.
Well, you've certainly conveyed your message, Keyplus, and I have to say that I've travelled fairly widely in the Middle East, but since speaking to you, I feel a lot less comfortable about Islam now than I ever did before. This has been a real eye-opener. I actually find it quite worrying that you say Muslims come here to show us the way. Your way most certainly isn't mine - and it never will be. (Incidentally, one of my best friends is Muslim - but she comes from Malaysia, and I'm pleased to say her ideas are nothing like yours).
You've answered my question about women who wear veils by talking about people taking their clothes off, and that's no answer at all. I've asked the question several times, and quite honestly, I feel you are deliberately avoiding the issue. It's a simple enough question after all. I know they do it by choice, and that's the point. They choose to do it, so are they really trying to integrate?
In answer to your question, yes, I do think those who convert to Islam are blind. In my opinion, no religion liberates humanity.
Well, you've certainly conveyed your message, Keyplus, and I have to say that I've travelled fairly widely in the Middle East, but since speaking to you, I feel a lot less comfortable about Islam now than I ever did before. This has been a real eye-opener. I actually find it quite worrying that you say Muslims come here to show us the way. Your way most certainly isn't mine - and it never will be. (Incidentally, one of my best friends is Muslim - but she comes from Malaysia, and I'm pleased to say her ideas are nothing like yours).
Naomi- Islam is package deal. You can not pick and chose. Especially where the rulings are clear. For example Alcohol is not permitted in Islam. If your that friend sits with you and drink or even only to make you happy she says that Alcohol should be allowed. Then I would not call her Muslim. And you do not have to be a Rocket Scientist to see the Attrocities alcohol has given to any society. I said Study Islam with open Heart. Do not study Muslims. You can not Judge a car by its driver. A bad driver can make you think it is not a right car and good one can make you buy that. Trust me Extremist is a bad word now a days, But I would say every Muslim should be extremist in the teachings of Religion. Only then he would be extremely kind, extremely honest, extremely truthfull, extremely loving, extremely just. Same goes to your question about veil as well. Although Islam does not say you should cover your face, but it does not forbid either, I believe these people are doing as a reaction to all the fuss people are making. In certain areas it is do with culture and not the religion. In many countries even non-muslims cover their face as well.
Keyplus, We're a liberal society, we've welcomed people of all cultures, they have their own places of worship, everyone benefits from our educational system, our social care system, and our health system - and most people are thriving in a way they never would have done had they remained in their own countries. You came here to go to Oxford, so surely that says something. People come here for a better life, plain and simple. Nevertheless, that doesn't seem to be enough for some. Now people like you want us to turn our backs on our own lifestyle and culture, and adopt yours instead. Why would we want to do that? If you want your package deal, that's fine by me - but I have no wish to pick or to choose - I simply don't want any of it.. I can think of nothing more abhorrent.
Thank you for the answer to the veil question. It is as I suspected. They are making a statement - and that statement is not conducive to integration.
And by the way, my friend is Muslim - but she's not a fanatic. She's sensible enough to live and let live.
Thank you for the answer to the veil question. It is as I suspected. They are making a statement - and that statement is not conducive to integration.
And by the way, my friend is Muslim - but she's not a fanatic. She's sensible enough to live and let live.
History tells you taht in the oast people used to travel to Baghdad, and Cordoba (In Spain) for education. History tells you that Muslims are the pioneers of the Mathematics, Medicine, and science. Did they all study in Oxford. No. If Crusadians would'nt have burnt hundreds and thousands books then history would have been different. By the way people do not come here because you have highest education possible. Not any more, People come to learn because of the language, otherwise people who do not speak english they are producing doctors, engineers and so on. It is only because English is widely spoken language (and why is that even that is another story). I am not trying to change you or any one. As you believe your life style is the best, I think I have a right to think the same. why are people trying to change it. Why do we have to start doing things which we believe are not good, only to mix up in the society. Do I have to start drinking to be branded Open minded or civilised. Then what about the people who are crying now that drinking has brought so many problems in this society. Incest sex is only in the countries where drinking is common. You do not know what are you doing? Even their Muslims have a point. That is only one example.
Keyplus, I didn't say that people come here because we have the highest education possible. I said they come here for a better life - and that's true. It's ludicrous to say that people only come here to learn English. Just pure nonsense.
Who's asking you to change your lifestyle? Who's forcing you to do anything you don't want to do? Is anyone making you drink alcohol, or have sex with people you don't want to have sex with? Is anyone stopping you living your life as you see fit? No - and no one is stopping you from thinking whatever you like, and from living the life you choose either - so frankly I don't know what you're ranting about.
Who's asking you to change your lifestyle? Who's forcing you to do anything you don't want to do? Is anyone making you drink alcohol, or have sex with people you don't want to have sex with? Is anyone stopping you living your life as you see fit? No - and no one is stopping you from thinking whatever you like, and from living the life you choose either - so frankly I don't know what you're ranting about.
Naomi- First of all,let me clarify that I did not say English language, I said that most of the publications, latest research and development is in English language, From England or even from any other english speaking country. Just imagine there are so many Polish Doctors here who are working as builders. Because of language problem. Used to be the same problem with Rusians as they used to teach mainly in their language. I know you did not ask me to change how I live. But when media mentions that Muslims are not adopting Western life style, what do they mean?
You said 'people come to learn because of the language', but the fact is that people come here for a better life. I've travelled widely, keyplus, I've seen a lot of dismal places, and a lot of poverty, and I can assure you that most of the immigrants to this country now enjoy a far better lifestyle than they did in their own countries - and I'm not just talking about Muslim countries. If people came here for other reasons, they'd go home once their aim had been achieved - but we don't see many of them scurrying away do we?
Why are you asking me what the media means when it says Muslims aren't adopting western lifestyle? Take a look at your ladies in their head to toe black, with two little slits cut in the veil so that they can see out - and then you tell me what the media means.
Incidentally, I wonder what would happen to us if we went to live in a Muslim state and verbally abused that society the way you're abusing ours? Count yourself lucky that you are able to speak freely here, and that we don't behave as other, less tolerant, countries would in similar circumstances I wonder why you want to live in our country at all, since you clearly totally despise our way of life.
Why are you asking me what the media means when it says Muslims aren't adopting western lifestyle? Take a look at your ladies in their head to toe black, with two little slits cut in the veil so that they can see out - and then you tell me what the media means.
Incidentally, I wonder what would happen to us if we went to live in a Muslim state and verbally abused that society the way you're abusing ours? Count yourself lucky that you are able to speak freely here, and that we don't behave as other, less tolerant, countries would in similar circumstances I wonder why you want to live in our country at all, since you clearly totally despise our way of life.
Naomi- now you are talking about financial factor. Do you according to your own Trade & commerce department this country is being run by the immigrants. You do not have your own enough doctors, mathematicians, nurses, and so on. There was a time when british people did not want to do certain jobs, Because they were not suitable for the people of Great Britain, so thers came and they started doing it. I do not think there is as much of a problem in those country as you are suggesting, Tell me one thing Hamas won elections in Palestine so they are elected government. Why britain and america do not accept their government. Instead they are imposing sanctions. What about Iran, Only Iranians do not agree with west so guess what, Sanctions. So Indirectly Who is making life difficult in those countries. If Turkey want to allow people that they can have veil if they want to. Why the western Countries are worried. Then you say about freedom of speach. Yes freedom of speach when someone is here because they do not want problem here. But in those peoples countries they want government which suits them. You know that CIA's budget is more than a good number of countries, their main job, only to make sure only those people stay in power which we like.
No, I'm not talking about the financial factor - I'm talking about a better lifestyle for ordinary people. You don't think people in third world countries have much of a problem? You obviously haven't been to many.
Keyplus, I am not in goverment and therefore I cannot even attempt to cure the ills of the world. Furthermore, I won't attempt to discuss the issues you raise, since yet again you are ranting and your agenda is becoming clearer with every post. Why don't you go to the politics section of AB and ask your political questions there. You may find someone who is interested enough to answer you.
Keyplus, I am not in goverment and therefore I cannot even attempt to cure the ills of the world. Furthermore, I won't attempt to discuss the issues you raise, since yet again you are ranting and your agenda is becoming clearer with every post. Why don't you go to the politics section of AB and ask your political questions there. You may find someone who is interested enough to answer you.
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