Quizzes & Puzzles2 mins ago
Do Anti Vaxers Deserve To Be Treated?
59 Answers
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Just asking the question in light of the news headlines over the last 24 hours about increased costs etc
Just asking the question in light of the news headlines over the last 24 hours about increased costs etc
Answers
As for 'thin end of the wedge -a silly argument when nothing else fits. Many people in healthcare and other professional
10:03 Thu 09th Sep 2021
stickybottle
" Question Author
pastafreak
Isn't it the duty of medicine to treat all?
I know this argument is based on cost to the NHS, but everyone should be entitled to treatment.
I wondered about that too whilst remembering the interferon issue a while back when cost was stated as the reason not to treat women with breast cancer"
not cost but COST/BENEFIT
" Question Author
pastafreak
Isn't it the duty of medicine to treat all?
I know this argument is based on cost to the NHS, but everyone should be entitled to treatment.
I wondered about that too whilst remembering the interferon issue a while back when cost was stated as the reason not to treat women with breast cancer"
not cost but COST/BENEFIT
Everyone deserves treatment, who is resident. This bothers me, because it goes so much against the basic principles of social, health, medical care- that everybody also has the right to choose. There "are" no moral considerations with treating another person, and neither should there be.
I'm sure, slightly related, that everyone is aware residential carers will have a "no jab, no job" policy soon. In an industry notoriously already short-staffed. This won't apply to residents, visitors, doctors, nurses, psychiatrists, or anyone else who regularly frequents care homes. And frankly, now they have drummed into all carers forever, that personal choices is an integral part- frankly, anyone willing to go along with this, is already missing the point about bullying and freedom, and wouldn't be the characters needed anyway. Which is the main thing.
If..... we decide to go against all medical principles and ethics, and start judging by "morals"- I would much, much prefer we refuse to treat paedophiles first or murderers, than scared or silly people. Priorities...
Apg, there are many things that can be compared. Vaccination, will hopefully, reduce your own symptoms- you can still pass it on. And the vaccines aren't 100% safe, as they were never likely to be.
Medical care, or social care, should never be about judgement, and I would say that anyone able to be angry or vengeful about those making "wrong" decisions, are already in the wrong job.
I'm sure, slightly related, that everyone is aware residential carers will have a "no jab, no job" policy soon. In an industry notoriously already short-staffed. This won't apply to residents, visitors, doctors, nurses, psychiatrists, or anyone else who regularly frequents care homes. And frankly, now they have drummed into all carers forever, that personal choices is an integral part- frankly, anyone willing to go along with this, is already missing the point about bullying and freedom, and wouldn't be the characters needed anyway. Which is the main thing.
If..... we decide to go against all medical principles and ethics, and start judging by "morals"- I would much, much prefer we refuse to treat paedophiles first or murderers, than scared or silly people. Priorities...
Apg, there are many things that can be compared. Vaccination, will hopefully, reduce your own symptoms- you can still pass it on. And the vaccines aren't 100% safe, as they were never likely to be.
Medical care, or social care, should never be about judgement, and I would say that anyone able to be angry or vengeful about those making "wrong" decisions, are already in the wrong job.
//Yes, absolutely. They are selfish, and posing an unnecessary risk to the community as a whole.//
1. Where is the source of your information for that?
How can you say that unvaccinated people are posing a risk to everybody else? (a) You do not know how much more likely an unvaccinated person is than a vaccinated one to pass on the disease. (b) You also do not know what effect the disease might have on those who may (or may not) contract it in that way. Risk is likelihood (a) times effect (b) and you know neither.
2. How are you proposing they be treated differently?
3. What about people who decline the 'flu vaccine? That disease kills many thousands of people every year in the UK. Are those people similarly selfish, or is it only the Covid refusniks who attract your disgust?
1. Where is the source of your information for that?
How can you say that unvaccinated people are posing a risk to everybody else? (a) You do not know how much more likely an unvaccinated person is than a vaccinated one to pass on the disease. (b) You also do not know what effect the disease might have on those who may (or may not) contract it in that way. Risk is likelihood (a) times effect (b) and you know neither.
2. How are you proposing they be treated differently?
3. What about people who decline the 'flu vaccine? That disease kills many thousands of people every year in the UK. Are those people similarly selfish, or is it only the Covid refusniks who attract your disgust?
The rate the infection is spreading it's likely that a high proportion of the population will get it eventually. The only way of limiting its effects is for people to have the vaccine (we've effectively abandoned attempts to stop the spread).
I put non-vaxxers in the same class as saboteurs, 5th columnists & black-marketeers in WW2. They are preventing us from winning the war.
I put non-vaxxers in the same class as saboteurs, 5th columnists & black-marketeers in WW2. They are preventing us from winning the war.
The selfish are the ones insisting on vaccination for all and threatening withdrawal of service if they dont comply. A certain German would be proud of you.
The vaccination helps YOU, you can still get it and can still pass it on but if you get it and are in an at risk group you stand a better chance of not dying.
If however you are below 40 you have very little chance of dying from Covid, so why take the chance of a vaccination, which lets face it for a few can cause serious problems and indeed death.
In short it is a personal decision.
I'm waiting for the first person coerced (and that's what it is denying jobs or services) to die. The law suits could break us.
The vaccination helps YOU, you can still get it and can still pass it on but if you get it and are in an at risk group you stand a better chance of not dying.
If however you are below 40 you have very little chance of dying from Covid, so why take the chance of a vaccination, which lets face it for a few can cause serious problems and indeed death.
In short it is a personal decision.
I'm waiting for the first person coerced (and that's what it is denying jobs or services) to die. The law suits could break us.
woofgang
stickybottle
" Question Author
pastafreak
Isn't it the duty of medicine to treat all?
I know this argument is based on cost to the NHS, but everyone should be entitled to treatment.
I wondered about that too whilst remembering the interferon issue a while back when cost was stated as the reason not to treat women with breast cancer"
not cost but COST/BENEFIT
If treatment were given by cost benefit I would imagine most over 80
Would not be treated for any illness
stickybottle
" Question Author
pastafreak
Isn't it the duty of medicine to treat all?
I know this argument is based on cost to the NHS, but everyone should be entitled to treatment.
I wondered about that too whilst remembering the interferon issue a while back when cost was stated as the reason not to treat women with breast cancer"
not cost but COST/BENEFIT
If treatment were given by cost benefit I would imagine most over 80
Would not be treated for any illness
youngmafbog
The selfish are the ones insisting on vaccination for all and threatening withdrawal of service if they dont comply. A certain German would be proud of you.
The vaccination helps YOU, you can still get it and can still pass it on but if you get it and are in an at risk group you stand a better chance of not dying.
Wrong
I thought the vaccination helped everyone
Or that is what we are being told
The selfish are the ones insisting on vaccination for all and threatening withdrawal of service if they dont comply. A certain German would be proud of you.
The vaccination helps YOU, you can still get it and can still pass it on but if you get it and are in an at risk group you stand a better chance of not dying.
Wrong
I thought the vaccination helped everyone
Or that is what we are being told
Ymb, I agree, I'm not sure it's only young people though.
I look after a gentleman of 96, who has had the first, but not the second. He suffered with angina already, with 3 or 4 bad attacks a year. After the first jab,he had 4, in the first week, worse and longer than ever, and still, several months later, is getting far more frequent an painful attacks suddenly. He hasn't reported it, he isn't online... so, there is a risk for everybody.
I look after a gentleman of 96, who has had the first, but not the second. He suffered with angina already, with 3 or 4 bad attacks a year. After the first jab,he had 4, in the first week, worse and longer than ever, and still, several months later, is getting far more frequent an painful attacks suddenly. He hasn't reported it, he isn't online... so, there is a risk for everybody.
Hi 7op. Comparing September with jan21 is not helpful. We know dates will be higher in winter. It would be interesting to compare admissions now with Sept 2020 which I can't find on my phone. But death's now are certainly well above those 12 months ago and are rising again and new infections are far higher . Espite all the vaccination this year. So there is still a problem surely.
//Most of those 7,907 are in hospital because, for whatever reason, they didn't have the vaccine and they are using valuable resources that the NHS needs to catch up…//
Lots of people are in hospital because of their own stupidity, lifestyle or negligence, dave. Drug addicts, alcoholics, dangerous drivers, people involved in fights are among those who immediately spring to mind though there are others, I’m sure. They are also using valuable resources. Nobody suggests they should be refused treatment.
//Hi 7op. Comparing September with jan21 is not helpful.//
I would say it’s very helpful, bob. In September 2020 the daily case numbers were only around 3,000 so not comparable at all to today’s situation. The case numbers last January were in the same ball park as they are today (seven day average 44.9k then, 38.5k now). The big difference is in hospital cases (as pointed out by 7op) and deaths (seven day average last January was around 1,200, today it is 133). There can be only one explanation for such a big difference and that is vaccination.
The virus has now become endemic and the government, thankfully and not before time, has given up any pretext of trying to prevent it spreading. Australia still persists with that strategy and it has descended into almost a police state (I can give you some details of their latest measures but it’s too involved for here). The disease must now be dealt with as it is – one of several nasty respiratory conditions from which some people may suffer particularly severe symptoms and even death. But a disease against which there is a fairly effective vaccine for those who want it.
The NHS is there to treat the sick and injured, however their conditions arise. It is not there to be “protected” and it is not there to pontificate on the reasons its patients end up needing care. It is more than adequately funded to meet that task. Unfortunately it is extremely badly organised and managed and much of its funding is wasted. The latest increase in NI will do nothing to address its problems as the extra cash will simply be lost in the noise (already adverts are being placed to recruit 42 executives at a cost of £9m p.a. to administer the new funds). But Covid is now just one of the many things it has to deal with.
Lots of people are in hospital because of their own stupidity, lifestyle or negligence, dave. Drug addicts, alcoholics, dangerous drivers, people involved in fights are among those who immediately spring to mind though there are others, I’m sure. They are also using valuable resources. Nobody suggests they should be refused treatment.
//Hi 7op. Comparing September with jan21 is not helpful.//
I would say it’s very helpful, bob. In September 2020 the daily case numbers were only around 3,000 so not comparable at all to today’s situation. The case numbers last January were in the same ball park as they are today (seven day average 44.9k then, 38.5k now). The big difference is in hospital cases (as pointed out by 7op) and deaths (seven day average last January was around 1,200, today it is 133). There can be only one explanation for such a big difference and that is vaccination.
The virus has now become endemic and the government, thankfully and not before time, has given up any pretext of trying to prevent it spreading. Australia still persists with that strategy and it has descended into almost a police state (I can give you some details of their latest measures but it’s too involved for here). The disease must now be dealt with as it is – one of several nasty respiratory conditions from which some people may suffer particularly severe symptoms and even death. But a disease against which there is a fairly effective vaccine for those who want it.
The NHS is there to treat the sick and injured, however their conditions arise. It is not there to be “protected” and it is not there to pontificate on the reasons its patients end up needing care. It is more than adequately funded to meet that task. Unfortunately it is extremely badly organised and managed and much of its funding is wasted. The latest increase in NI will do nothing to address its problems as the extra cash will simply be lost in the noise (already adverts are being placed to recruit 42 executives at a cost of £9m p.a. to administer the new funds). But Covid is now just one of the many things it has to deal with.
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