Listener Crossword 4572 - Don't Tell By Poat

[Cruncher]

Daresay I'm not the first to post on this but happy to have assembled a full grid with a reasonable hunch of what the final highlighting will need to reveal but as yet to tackle the final stage. Impressed by the treated clues which, as they say on those fancy cooking programmes, work two ways.

[Hagen]

I had déjà vu here: fill in the grid, get the theme, read about it on Wiki, realise what I'm looking for, and then spend hours hunting in the grid only to find several near-appearances that don't quite work... Of course I'd fallen for the red herring, and after several hours of grid-staring I lost patience and had a peep at another forum for a hint to put me out of my misery.

Once I knew what I was looking for the treatments of columns and rows were easy enough, but I can say with 100% certainty that I would never have found the required musical work unaided. I'd never heard of it and it hardly leaped out at me from the relevant reference material. So technically a DNF for me, and kudos to those who did/do complete this.

[olichant]

Very clever puzzle - it took me ages to work out the end game, but it was entirely fair. Liked the title and (as to be expected) it was a really fine, clean construction. Thanks, Poat.

[Philoctetes]

Yes, nicely complex.But.....
Again, what standard reference works would lead to the solution without the internet and its search facilities. Even if setters maintain their purity by only using their direct personal knowledge, I would not mind betting that 99% of solvers have used Google at one stage or another. Let's drop the sham.

[emcee]

I was ready to comment along the lines of, "Thank goodness for Wikipedia" but discover it's already been said!

I thought the clues were fair but tough in places, as expected from Poat.

Obscure theme but a decent puzzle.

Thanks to the setter.

[pushmi-pullyu]

Finally got there, but only after having also had a peek at the nottheanswerbank forum. 28d made me smile.

[fyellin]

The title of the puzzle is a pretty good warning that there might be a red herring.

[Hagen]

Glad it wasn't just me, PP! Not that there's anything wrong with using online help so long as one (a) doesn't submit the puzzle and (b) admits to doing so. Apropos of that, I've never understood the animosity between the two sites which has led to digs from a few posters on one site about the other (from both sides). I guess it goes back to before I joined here, but it seems a shame when we all share a common - and minority - interest.

[Cruncher]

Very clever puzzle but a quibble with the preamble which made it seem that entire columns and rows were to be thematically treated - or maybe that was just me?

[twoshortplan]

I have completed the grid, got the seven treated clues and guessed at the musical work which I did know But my 'one-time partner' (found on Wiki) has 3x Ls but no 'O'. I would think that this must be my mistake but the only answer I have starting with O doesn't seem to be a treated clue. Please confirm that it is me that's wrong.

[sunny-dave]

Yes - you're wrong - the 'O' clue is treated

[ I also thought it was 'plain' and only worked out the (rather iffy) treatment retrospectively ]

[sunny-dave]

and ... before anyone complains ... I don't think this minor breach of our normal 'no help' modus operandi goes too far beyond our self-imposed pale.

[sunny-dave]

A very unfavourite subject - damn near a talentless charlatan in my opinion - but a very nice puzzle - some nice clues and then a neat bit of manipulation.

Thanks Poat - another good one.

[Scorpius]

An excellent pzzle, rather easier than Poat's usual offering.

Re Cruncher's comment above, I don't think the preamble is misleading regarding the grid treatment. The pairs of columns and rows are subject to exactly the same treatment as the clues, i.e. part of each row or column swaps with a part of the other.

Like Philoctetes, I wondered how one would complete this without the Intenet's search facilities, but perhaps a careful scrutiny of the initial grid might reveal enough to lead to the soution via a reference work in a library. Of course, with many libraries being underfunded and underused, the Internet ay eventually become a permitted resource for the Listener.

[IainGrace]

Came late to this. Tough but fair challenge and we knew the work in question. As for the two sites, the issue presumably (which should not cause discord) is that one gives no hints and the other gives hints varying from the oblique to the “here’s the answers to most of the clues” variation.