May To See Jean-Claude Junker On Brexit

[vetuste_ennemi]

What is the formal ceremony when the EU liege-lord gives audience to a tributary?

I do hope it's brief and not too distressing to Mrs May. Mind you, she has to date dealt with humilation with an admirable sangfroid. (Got a bit of the old froggy stuff in there. Like it? Remember ConcordE - E for England, E for Europe, E for Entente. E by gum , them were the days.)

[vetuste_ennemi]

Remember SuperMac. Yes, we were desterate to join and frustrated by De Gaulle's intransigence.

And thanks for reminding me - Monnet:

"There will be no peace in Europe, if the states are reconstituted on the basis of national sovereignty... The European states must constitute themselves into a federation..." (Monnet, 1943)

The political aspirations enunciated in this quote were never mentioned by any political leader.


Doi a straw poll. Ask anybody seventy or over how the Common Market was sold to them by the politicians (mavericks apart) and the media.

[emmie]

or even under 70, i was around in 75 and don;t recall hearing about a Federation of States, but the EEC yes that was common knowledge.

[jim360]

I'm content to accept your and NJ's word for it, and of course it's rather easier to dig up articles from the 1960s or quotes from random summits in the 1940s and 50s when you have Google at your fingertips, which makes a difference to research.

The Treaty of Rome literally begins with a determination "to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe", though. It's not my fault if the meaning of this weren't made clear.

[-Talbot-]

jim360
Talbot, I need to find the exact quote, but there's an entry in de Gaulle's diary where he paints a picture of MacMillan begging, pitifully. How fanciful it is or not I don't know, but it hardly matters.


Of course, it doesn't...well obviously not to you as you keep repeating it.

[jim360]

Hyperbole is a feature of discussion and discourse. I'm sorry it's given you an excuse to avoid the main point of my message, which is that the UK spent a good deal of time trying, as hard as possible, to join the EU, in what can only be assumed was the full knowledge, from the top politicians at least, that the EU's long-term aim was to become a political union rather than merely an economic one.

If it wasn't quite "begging", then it was, at times, as near as dammit. Andrew Marr covered some of the story, in his History of Modern Britain. As I don't have a copy of that to hand I can't dig up the precise quote. If it helps you to shut up about the begging bit, and focus on the substance, then I'll do my best to find it for you, but somehow I'm not sure you're really that interested.

[-Talbot-]

TBH I'm more interested why when you post something like that, you get all defensive and uppity when challenged on it.

[Old_Geezer]

Ever closer union need not mean politically. Standards were supposed to come together. Folk who claimed it meant otherwise were told that it was lies and they were simply spreading fear. Folk weren't prepared to swallow the lies a second time in the recent referendum. We'd had plenty of experience to know what the hidden truth was.

[ichkeria]

It so happens there’s a copy of this book by my elbow and in it I read:
“... membership of the EEC would subordinate Britain in important ways to foreigners. This was recognized from the first. There was no illusion. Independent would be lost.”
Marr writes how at Rambouillet, in discussions on Britain’s membership, “At one point Macmillan broke down in tears of frustration at the Frenchman’s intransigence, leading de Gaulle to report cruelly to his cabinet later: “This poor man, to whom I had nothing to give, seemed so sad, so beaten that I wanted to put my hand on his shoulder and say to him, as in the Edith Piaf song, “Ne pleurez pas, milord”

[vetuste_ennemi]

//... the main point of my message...is that the UK spent a good deal of time trying, as hard as possible, to join the EU//

Absolutely, remember it well.

//...in what can only be assumed was the full knowledge, from the top politicians at least, that the EU's long-term aim was to become a political union rather than merely an economic one//

The "top politicians", if they knew fully or only a bit, didn't think the electorate needed the distraction of the long-term aims.

[-Talbot-]

“This poor man, to whom I had nothing to give, seemed so sad, so beaten that I wanted to put my hand on his shoulder and say to him, as in the Edith Piaf song, “Ne pleurez pas, milord”


Perhaps we should have offered him *** all when he did a runner to England.

[jim360]

When did he run to England?

(I think I know the answer to this, I was just hoping that you weren't sinking so low...)

[-Talbot-]

Too soon?

[jim360]

No, just in bad taste.

[Khandro]

//What is the formal ceremony when the EU liege-lord gives audience to a tributary?//

I believe the correct EU protocol is that she should kneel before him and say, "I've done everything you have asked of me, my Liege, it's all turning out just as you wanted", and that tiresome man Nigel Farage has today, repeated what he had said to him in the EU parliament, "It's game, set and match for Barnier, n'est pas? ".

["Britains never, never, never, shall be ........ "]

[Jackdaw33]

The name is Macmillan, not MacMillan.

[jim360]

Thanks -- I'll try to get the capitalisation right in future.

[Khandro]

and while we're being fussy, mine should be "Britons", but I know you are all too polite to point it out