Advice Please

[rosiew]

My Friend and work colleague is a Polish citizen and have been living and working in the UK for the past 12 years. She applied for a permanent residency over 12 months ago which was successful. Is she going to be ok when UK leaves the EU in 2019 as it says that this will not be valid after that date. I am really worried for her.

[Old_Geezer]

My totally non-expert opinion is that if someone's been granted permanent residency then that's permanent, not dated. What is this date relating too ? Does your friend have to take up the offer by then, or something ?

A legal eagle should be along with expert knowledge soon.

[mikey4444]

As I understand it, Mrs May has pledged that people like your friend will be able to stay here in Britain, when we leave the EU.

[Peter Pedant]

I hate answers that just ask more questions....but

"it says it will not be valid"

what is 'it' ? It really says you have "permanent residency until 2019" ?

[Peter Pedant]

this says they dont

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/expiry_of_document_certifying_pe

(documents certifying permant residency dont expire)
it may be worth having a look at hers

I am in a similar position with a Polish neighbour and they have applied for british nationality for their new born - [registered the kid as a brit]

[Peter Pedant]

hahaha (OK not that funny)
in view of the fact I look out for english news on residence rights of EU nationals it was on the radio_
will the PM guarantee in writing the rights to remain of EU nationals who want to remain

and the bag carrier said portentously - "she has said yes"

yeah but will she write it down ?

and the shocked bag carrier and civil servant asked
'is not the word of the PM of the UK enough for you?'

and there was complete silence in the radio studio

Such is life - but watch the Crown for the fifties equivalent of all this

[KARL]

Normally a permit to remain is permanent, i.e. not subject to rethink. However, these are strange times and the authorities (government=politicians) "go with the flow". Those who one day spout in one way on something may not much later come out with virtually the direct opposite if they decide it is the "will of the people" (or is similarly politically expedient) - and why shouldn't they because quite large (vociferous) numbers of people expect them to (and are joined by some of the media, again conveniently). It is realistically possible that some explanation about changed realities/facts/policy or anything at all are taken to mean the original reason(s) for issuing the permit no longer apply(ies) - or there might be no explanation given at all - tough.

[New Judge]

Looking at it pragmatically (without getting bogged down in the legal niceties) there are about three million people from other EU countries settled in the UK. Since the country has extreme difficulty (and often fails) to deport convicted murderers and rapists from elsewhere in the EU, there is not a cat in hell's chance of them having the will or the ability to force anybody else out.

For all the bluster from politicians on both sides you can rest assured that your Polish friend has no worries.

[mikey4444]

NJ............I'm surprised that you forgot to add that Britain has "extreme difficulty" in making our own unemployed take the jobs that some of our Polish friends seem to find no difficulty in accepting ?

[KARL]

While New Judge's point regarding deportation may be right, most or all of the cases he has in mind will have been hard fought by people wanting to make a finer point and all of that will have been much in the public eye. Apart from all of that, "ordinary people" are not noticed and their treatment also passes unnoticed. If the order is served withdrawing the permit and demanding departure, then (perhaps like your friend) I would feel distinctly unhappy about relying on the absence of a chance for the cat in hell and ignoring the pronouncement. Doing so would be duplicating precisely what those complaining about failure to evict certain people are on about, a sort of way to see oneself as being above the law (or at very least brazenly challenging it) and assuming a form of right/privilege. The dilemma is about how much respect does a dubious and constantly fluid (not to say inconsistent) framework deserve.

[New Judge]

So there will be 3,000,000 eviction notices issued then, Karl?

There is absolutely no way that this or any other government will countenance such mass removal of people, hence why I said that neither the will nor the ability will be evident. It simply ain't gonna happen.

"NJ............I'm surprised that you forgot to add that Britain has "extreme difficulty" in making our own unemployed take the jobs that some of our Polish friends seem to find no difficulty in accepting ?"

Yes that's quite true, Mikey. I didn't mention it because it's not really proper to this question. But I quite agree; successive governments (of all colours) have failed dismally in this repect.

[KARL]

NJ, there don't have to be three million, only a few will suffice if one is addressed to you while those "particularly important", "necessary" for the economy and/or have "valuable skills", etc. find no such thing in their mail, nor do those with "strong ties", etc., etc. I can well see while rosiew's friend is uncomfortable and certainly would not dismiss his/her concerns out of hand.

[KARL]

..that should be why, not while.........

[New Judge]

"...and certainly would not dismiss his/her concerns out of hand."

Well I would. If anybody legally resident in the UK, especially if they are law-abiding and have been granted permanent residency, has fears that they may be even asked, let alone forced to leave as a result of Brexit, they need their bumps felt.

[Jackdaw33]

There must be people from non-EU countries who have been granted residence here so what's the difference? Typical Remainer scaremongering in my opinion.

[New Judge]

Exactly, jackdaw.

Consider two people: Jaroslow Polianski from Warsaw who came to the UK to live and work, runs his own building business and was granted permanent residency; Mohammed Ali-Akhbar who stowed away in the back of a lorry from Calais, was granted indefinite leave to remain after claiming asylum, is unemployed, has six children and lives in a rent-free council house in Newham. Mr Polanski is given notice to quit as a result of Brexit (simply on the basis that he hails from an EU nation), whereas Mr Ali-Akhbar…..

Oh! Hang on though. Perhaps I’d better have a rethink. :-)

[Peter Pedant]

// Oh! Hang on though. Perhaps I’d better have a rethink. :-) //

and whilst you are rethinking, consider answering the question
instead of a quick Brexit frolic amongst the usual

it looks as tho permanent means at present permanent
changing it would require primary legislation -
would be possible with the return of sovereignty that NJ adores so much
restoring the status quo that the word of the British Govt is er not the word of a British govt later.

[New Judge]

I was not having a "Brexit Frolic", Peter. Quite the contrary, in fact.

I was simply trying to demonstrate, in a lighthearted way, that EU citizens with permanent residency status will not be targetted for expulsion as a result of Brexit any more than a non-EU citizen with the same status would. It is fanciful in the extreme to imagine that any government of any persuasion would propose the primary legislation you point out is necessary to achieve such expulsions. Expelling people legally resident in the UK is not the aim of Brexit. No sensible Leaver believes in such a strategy (though a few non-sensible ones might).

This question was about concerns that EU citizens might have that they will be asked or forced to leave. As I said from the outset, whatever sort of Brexit "deal" is agreed, that simply ain't gonna happen.

[themas]

From your question I assume your friend has a permanent residency card. Government recently announced that after Brexit these will be replaced & EU citizens who have such cards will have two years to apply for the replacement. Gov't also said a new online procedure to apply for the new permit will come on stream in the second half of this year.

There is no question of such people being asked to leave the UK so your friend does not need to worry - she just needs to make sure she applies for the new permit when the system is up and running.