Documentation

[KARL]

A 16 year old needs to prove that his mother was not married at the time of his birth. How does someone go about this and end up with solid documentation which constitutes certification ? Is there any way to achieve this within the UK ?

[bednobs]

who is asking for it? Perhaps they need to specify what documentation they would accept?
wouldnt a ful BC do the job (i think it says if you are married on that) but aso, how can you prove a negative?

[KARL]

The requirement is "Mother's marital status at the time of birth". What do you mean by "a full BC" (my spelling) - birth certificate ? I think I am correct that all it says (in the UK) is the name of mother, the name of father (if the mother submits/reports it) and the given names of the child.

[bednobs]

yes i meant Birth certificate. Was the mother subsequently married? A marriage certificate would say if the wife was previousy a spinster, which would be proof of sorts

[Canary42]

Surely the person requiring such proof should determine (and state) what proof is acceptable. This can then be submitted (or not, as the case may be). This is the usual case when "proof" is required (e.g. stating whether a photo is required for personal ID).- having said that, I struggle to identify any such evidence in this case.

[TonyV]

Yes get a copy of birth certificate.

[KARL]

I asked thinking someone might possess an instant answer. I now wonder if the registrars of births, deaths and marriages might issue something regarding marital status on a particular date but I somehow doubt it - abroad they might well do (more flexibility and more comprehensive systems) but somehow unlikely here. I will phone around in the morning.

[KARL]

Incidentally, a birth certificate (UK) I have seen (but much older than 16 years) makes no mention of marital status at all.

[woofgang]

A difficult thing to prove anyway....proof of a negative often is.

[10ClarionSt]

But there is a difference between minus zero and plus zero. I know this because my friend, who was a university lecturer in Mathematics, wrote a book on the subject. I don't know how or what the diffrence is, but if Dave says there is one, then there is one. Good innit?
That doesn't help with the DOB enquiry does it? Sorry. :o)

[TonyV]

You can order one from here.

Yhttps://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate

[TonyV]

Bad link this one will work

https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate

[KARL]

The birth certificate does not serve the purpose, he has that already - it says nothing about marital status. I phoned his local Registrar's office and it came out (not directly but indirectly through no useful answer being to hand) that they can find in their records the current status, at one point indicating that this they can provided the person is married, if not then they would be able to suggest one assumes he/she is not married - but past status is a mystery to them (implied always). This suggests that if someone never marries they cannot say that they haven't married. Equally, by implication, somebody having married and divorced and therefore now being single again, they know nothing about the past marriage. Getting any/all the limited answers was very difficult and clarity was clearly not present on what the system is capable of delivering to the public (by implication very little). Maybe this is like court records: The public has nearly no access, credit agencies and the press can buy more or less full access to everything on record. By contrast, the 16 year old can get a full (lifetime) marital status history certificate on his father from his father's country - yep, the father is a foreigner, you know where everything is so inferior.

[fiction-factory]

>A 16 year old needs to prove that his mother was not married at the time of his birth.

I'd be interested to know the background- i.e. the reason why he needs to prove this. Sometimes knowing the context can help us find a solution

[TonyV]

Karl you cannot get one for free. Somerset house in London used to hold all birth and death records where you can order copy from.

[KARL]

He is not trying to get the required document for free (are any of these things ever free ?) - this sort of thing appears not to be available in the UK so, on the face of it, he is stuck. It looks like the only hope here would be to get a library of certificates which hopefully might convince some that, in all likelihood (based on everything assembled), the answer is X. This is way short of what he was hoping to get which is something akin to the foreign example above.

Why he wants it is of course totally irrelevant. For example I usually am taken aback when being quite specific (precise description) asking for, say, a piece of wood at the timber merchants or something of a similar nature, and the sales assistant asks what it's for. I want a potato, either there is a potato available or not - it's up to me how I cook it and, presumably, how I want to cook it will not determine whether the potato is available. I don't hold it against the person, it just seems a pointless question.

[237SJ]

Do you belong to Ancestry? If a marriage took place in the UK, then it should show up on there. You might not be able to find divorce but it might give you some idea.

[woofgang]

it may not be as irrelevant as you think. Different woods and wood treatments are better for different jobs. Even with spuds, you make a better potato salad with a waxy potato and mash is better made with floury potatoes. If you have a problem, there may be more than one way of dealing with it and someone on here may have had the same problem and solved it without needing to get a certificate....of course if the reason is a personal one, you may not wish to post it publicly, but the question is not irrelevant.

[KARL]

"A 16 year old needs to prove.....certification ?" was not a rhetorical statement, it has to be a certificate that is not just someone's best guess say-so or argued judgement/conclusion but from an official body such as the Registrar's. Ancestry is not an issuer of official certificates, it is in effect a private business. How someone might have been happy with something else is of no help (thanks all the same) nor if they needed nothing of the sort and thus simply asked a knowledgeable relative. The lad is not wanting to find out for himself, he and all his family have known the answer ever since his birth.

I want a potato, I know I want/need a potato, I'll decide when/how I'll cook it - if I ask for a Maris Piper then a King Edward is not what I might be persuaded to accept just because others were happy with that for their purposes. Were I uncertain I would not be specific to the point of bordering on putting forward a clinical/forensic specification.

Unless I discover something new, this is not available in the UK, the records/system do/does not extend to such generosity/versatility/capability.

[fiction-factory]

This thread reads to me like an excuse to complain about how things are in the UK and how much more efficient/better they are overseas

[fiction-factory]

>Why he wants it is of course totally irrelevant.

I realise that was directed at my query. Fair enough, if your mind is closed to considering other ways of achieving your goal .