Quizzes & Puzzles27 mins ago
Halal and Kosher Slaughter – Ethical or not?
42 Answers
The thread below about ASDA stocking Halal meat has turned into a bit of a farce. I shall attempt to resurrect the question as it is a subject I am concerned about.
In my opinion, Halal and Kosher slaughter methods are at odds with animal welfare. Whether you agree with the slaughter of animals for food purposes or not, I think it's safe to say that the majority of people consider any sort of unnecessary animal suffering abhorrent.
The usual (or non-Halal/Kosher) method of slaughter is that the animal is stunned (ie. rendered unconscious) and then killed.
The Halal/Kosher method of slaughter is that the animal in question is conscious at the moment the fatal wound is inflicted. Typically, a religious prayer is said and then the animal, whilst fully conscious, has it's throat cut.
Thoughts?
In my opinion, Halal and Kosher slaughter methods are at odds with animal welfare. Whether you agree with the slaughter of animals for food purposes or not, I think it's safe to say that the majority of people consider any sort of unnecessary animal suffering abhorrent.
The usual (or non-Halal/Kosher) method of slaughter is that the animal is stunned (ie. rendered unconscious) and then killed.
The Halal/Kosher method of slaughter is that the animal in question is conscious at the moment the fatal wound is inflicted. Typically, a religious prayer is said and then the animal, whilst fully conscious, has it's throat cut.
Thoughts?
Answers
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Two things concern me about this issue. First and foremost, the welfare and unnecessary suffering of the animal. And secondly, the apparent bending of the law for so called religious practices.
I feel strongly that both Halal and Kosher methods of slaughter are unethical and cruel and I'm not alone in thinking this...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm
Quoting from the above link, Dr Majid Katme says, “... A quick loss of blood pressure and the brain is instantaneously starved of blood and there is no time to start feeling any pain”
You can read more of Doctor Katme's views here...
http://www.guardian.c.../11/doctorinthemosque
So clearly, he's a man we should all be listening too.... not.
I feel strongly that both Halal and Kosher methods of slaughter are unethical and cruel and I'm not alone in thinking this...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm
Quoting from the above link, Dr Majid Katme says, “... A quick loss of blood pressure and the brain is instantaneously starved of blood and there is no time to start feeling any pain”
You can read more of Doctor Katme's views here...
http://www.guardian.c.../11/doctorinthemosque
So clearly, he's a man we should all be listening too.... not.
FAWC seen to rely on the fact that it takes 2 minutes for it to bleed to death to as a sign that it is inhumane, without looking at the time it takes for the brain to be starved of oxygen. This doesn't seem to make sense to me. If I slit a persons throat, although it would take a long time for all the blood to come out, they would be dead long before that.
Accorfin to Wiki:" in 1978, a study incorporating EEG (electroencephalograph) with electrodes surgically implanted on the skull of 17 sheep and 15 calves, and conducted by Wilhelm Schulze et al. at the University of Veterinary Medicine in Germany concluded that "the slaughter in the form of a ritual cut is, if carried out properly, painless in sheep and calves according to EEG recordings and the missing defensive actions" (of the animals) and that "For sheep, there were in part severe reactions both in bloodletting cut and the pain stimuli" when Captive Bolt Stunning (CBS) was used. This study is cited by the German Constitutional Court in its permitting of dhabiha slaughtering"
Being honest, I can't see any real facts here (save from a study in the late 70s) - just opinions.
Would I have a problem eating Halal or Kosher meat? No - but then I am also happy to eat battery farm eggs
Accorfin to Wiki:" in 1978, a study incorporating EEG (electroencephalograph) with electrodes surgically implanted on the skull of 17 sheep and 15 calves, and conducted by Wilhelm Schulze et al. at the University of Veterinary Medicine in Germany concluded that "the slaughter in the form of a ritual cut is, if carried out properly, painless in sheep and calves according to EEG recordings and the missing defensive actions" (of the animals) and that "For sheep, there were in part severe reactions both in bloodletting cut and the pain stimuli" when Captive Bolt Stunning (CBS) was used. This study is cited by the German Constitutional Court in its permitting of dhabiha slaughtering"
Being honest, I can't see any real facts here (save from a study in the late 70s) - just opinions.
Would I have a problem eating Halal or Kosher meat? No - but then I am also happy to eat battery farm eggs
To clarify (from the UK Halal Food Authority):
The Halal Food Authority allows stunning of birds and animals, but does not allow 'stunning to kill.
Captive Bolt Stunning, precussion stunning and gas stunning are prohibited
The Halal Food Authority however, allows controlled electric stun-with-minuscule amperage, with an official Veterinary Surgeon validating that the animal or the birds do not die prior to slaughtering.
There are two types of electric stunning that Halal Food Authority approves:
Waterbath Stun – for Poultry
Electric Tong Stun – for Ovine meat
"The HFA, Alhamdulillah has devised a system of monitoring, endorsing and authenticating meat, poultry and foodstuffs that would always be contractually procured with Islamic axioms and full regards to EU relevant regulations of meat hygiene, food hygiene, food safety and environmental health."
Here's the key bit;
"Slaughterhouses have to ensure that they follow and adhere to EU regulations of hygiene and animal welfare together with Welfare of Animal Slaughtering and Killing Rules 1999-400 (WASK 99-400). Without compliance of this rule meat and poultry would not be defined as halal. To the best of ability HFA ensures that total production of a plant is halal validated regardless of the fact that some halal production does reach the non-halal traders."
So does that clear everything up with regards to the production of halal meat/poultry?
Were you aware of the fact that animals are stunned first?
The Halal Food Authority allows stunning of birds and animals, but does not allow 'stunning to kill.
Captive Bolt Stunning, precussion stunning and gas stunning are prohibited
The Halal Food Authority however, allows controlled electric stun-with-minuscule amperage, with an official Veterinary Surgeon validating that the animal or the birds do not die prior to slaughtering.
There are two types of electric stunning that Halal Food Authority approves:
Waterbath Stun – for Poultry
Electric Tong Stun – for Ovine meat
"The HFA, Alhamdulillah has devised a system of monitoring, endorsing and authenticating meat, poultry and foodstuffs that would always be contractually procured with Islamic axioms and full regards to EU relevant regulations of meat hygiene, food hygiene, food safety and environmental health."
Here's the key bit;
"Slaughterhouses have to ensure that they follow and adhere to EU regulations of hygiene and animal welfare together with Welfare of Animal Slaughtering and Killing Rules 1999-400 (WASK 99-400). Without compliance of this rule meat and poultry would not be defined as halal. To the best of ability HFA ensures that total production of a plant is halal validated regardless of the fact that some halal production does reach the non-halal traders."
So does that clear everything up with regards to the production of halal meat/poultry?
Were you aware of the fact that animals are stunned first?
live and let die i say,
i have no problem either in christians killing their food in a special way......?
or dressing up in a special way.......?
lets face it most religious clubs have peculiar tendancies and rituals
providing they do it in private, dont bother me and its legal in uk, i couldnt care less
i have no problem either in christians killing their food in a special way......?
or dressing up in a special way.......?
lets face it most religious clubs have peculiar tendancies and rituals
providing they do it in private, dont bother me and its legal in uk, i couldnt care less
Thank you birdie for returning my original question from the play ground.
No one in this new post has replied to the fact that only Halal meat is now sold at this particular ASDA shop. If this shop is in an area that is mainly an Moslem area, then if their religion calls only for the consumption of Halal meat then so be it. But what I object to is the fact that the choice has been removed.
Why is it that certain groups have a voice that is listened to no matter how small their majority? Yet if a store was to sell real fur articles, then there would be a massive protest.
No one in this new post has replied to the fact that only Halal meat is now sold at this particular ASDA shop. If this shop is in an area that is mainly an Moslem area, then if their religion calls only for the consumption of Halal meat then so be it. But what I object to is the fact that the choice has been removed.
Why is it that certain groups have a voice that is listened to no matter how small their majority? Yet if a store was to sell real fur articles, then there would be a massive protest.
AOG
This thread is about the ethics of halal/kosher meat products, not about the Asda store.
If the store management have decided to stock exclusively halal meat and see revenues fall, they will reverse that decision. It's the bottom line which they care about.
You say "Why is it that certain groups have a voice that is listened to no matter how small their majority? Yet if a store was to sell real fur articles, then there would be a massive protest."
Well, if local Muslims had campaigned for Asda to stock nothing but halal meat, you'd have a valid point.
Have they?
You raise the question of stocking real fur products...what's the connection with halal meat?
This thread is about the ethics of halal/kosher meat products, not about the Asda store.
If the store management have decided to stock exclusively halal meat and see revenues fall, they will reverse that decision. It's the bottom line which they care about.
You say "Why is it that certain groups have a voice that is listened to no matter how small their majority? Yet if a store was to sell real fur articles, then there would be a massive protest."
Well, if local Muslims had campaigned for Asda to stock nothing but halal meat, you'd have a valid point.
Have they?
You raise the question of stocking real fur products...what's the connection with halal meat?
I don't understand the fuss. It's a purely commercial decision.
If I buy Wagon Wheels from a supermarket and then one day they've been replaced by Kit-Kats, because Kit-Kats sell more, I wouldn't assume it was ideological warfare. I also wouldn't complain that they've impinged on my freedom of choice. It's just the way supermarkets work.
If people want non-halal meat, it'll soon come back. Market forces will dictate it.
Fact is though, most people don't have an opinion either way, other than those with a religious belief that it's important for it to be halal.
If I buy Wagon Wheels from a supermarket and then one day they've been replaced by Kit-Kats, because Kit-Kats sell more, I wouldn't assume it was ideological warfare. I also wouldn't complain that they've impinged on my freedom of choice. It's just the way supermarkets work.
If people want non-halal meat, it'll soon come back. Market forces will dictate it.
Fact is though, most people don't have an opinion either way, other than those with a religious belief that it's important for it to be halal.
sp1814
/// This thread is about the ethics of halal/kosher meat products, not about the Asda store.///
Since it was my original post that introduced this subject, (before it was hijacked by others for their own amusement), then I have every right to refer to the original news story, otherwise this issue sould have been put into another topic, Animals & Nature, Food & Drink, or Society & Culture or even Chatterbox, for example
/// You raise the question of stocking real fur products...what's the connection with halal meat? ///
No direct connection, only the sensibility of the two issues.
e.g. If one is a valid acceptance, then why isn't the other?
/// This thread is about the ethics of halal/kosher meat products, not about the Asda store.///
Since it was my original post that introduced this subject, (before it was hijacked by others for their own amusement), then I have every right to refer to the original news story, otherwise this issue sould have been put into another topic, Animals & Nature, Food & Drink, or Society & Culture or even Chatterbox, for example
/// You raise the question of stocking real fur products...what's the connection with halal meat? ///
No direct connection, only the sensibility of the two issues.
e.g. If one is a valid acceptance, then why isn't the other?
If I happened to be in Asda on the Isle of Dogs and happened to want a steak for dinner and the only steak they were selling were Halal, frankly, I couldn't give a tinker's cuss.
I don't particularly care how an animal has been killed, just so long as it tastes nice.
Just to anger people even more, I love Veal, Calves liver and, as a special treat, Fois Gras (and yes, I am aware of la gavage).
Animals are bred for food and therefore I don't think we should be particularly squeemish concering how they happen to end up on our plate.
I don't particularly care how an animal has been killed, just so long as it tastes nice.
Just to anger people even more, I love Veal, Calves liver and, as a special treat, Fois Gras (and yes, I am aware of la gavage).
Animals are bred for food and therefore I don't think we should be particularly squeemish concering how they happen to end up on our plate.
AOG
In answer to whether Asda's decision will increase votes for the BNP - of course it will...amongst very stupid people who think that there's some kind of invisible umbilical cord that links local council offices to the boardroom of a private super-market.
A more pointed question would be "Will the decision lead to a revolt amongst Asda shareholders", to which the answer would be "If we see turnover go up in that store, we're happy for the policy to remain intact".
The odd thing in all this is why it's even come up. Its not that fresh meat won't be available. It will be - but it will be halal.
My guess is that the reason the store will stock exclusively halal meat on it's fresh counter is that halal meat isn't supposed to come in contact with non-halal...also there MAY be an issue of space (carrying two sets of each meat/poultry item etc).
If the price is the same, and the animals are slaughtered according to EU regulations, then what's the problem?
In answer to whether Asda's decision will increase votes for the BNP - of course it will...amongst very stupid people who think that there's some kind of invisible umbilical cord that links local council offices to the boardroom of a private super-market.
A more pointed question would be "Will the decision lead to a revolt amongst Asda shareholders", to which the answer would be "If we see turnover go up in that store, we're happy for the policy to remain intact".
The odd thing in all this is why it's even come up. Its not that fresh meat won't be available. It will be - but it will be halal.
My guess is that the reason the store will stock exclusively halal meat on it's fresh counter is that halal meat isn't supposed to come in contact with non-halal...also there MAY be an issue of space (carrying two sets of each meat/poultry item etc).
If the price is the same, and the animals are slaughtered according to EU regulations, then what's the problem?
I think birdie's question demands three answers.
1- Halal or Kosher method of slaughtering is good for the animal or not. Well as in example given by VIC slaughtering the way Muslims do is less painful. Now you can not ask the animal after that and I am not a scientist either. But people do say that when throat is cut with very sharp object it cuts oxygen (blood) supply to brain and is less painful than when animal is hit in the head with something. Then is the blood bit. And we all know that blood is where most of the unwanted things are carried (bacteria, etc).
2- This bit goes to AOG too. I do not think that ASDA are selling because of the ethical demands of Muslims, its to do with ASDA believing that they have demand and they have decided to supply to earn REVENUE. And that is what any successful business would do. Just as almost every corner shop started selling Polish food since they saw the customers around them.
3- Why it is allowed in EU. It is even more simpler. EU do not want bad relations with either Muslims or Jews as they do have a say in the world economy. So again EU are thinking as businesses do.
1- Halal or Kosher method of slaughtering is good for the animal or not. Well as in example given by VIC slaughtering the way Muslims do is less painful. Now you can not ask the animal after that and I am not a scientist either. But people do say that when throat is cut with very sharp object it cuts oxygen (blood) supply to brain and is less painful than when animal is hit in the head with something. Then is the blood bit. And we all know that blood is where most of the unwanted things are carried (bacteria, etc).
2- This bit goes to AOG too. I do not think that ASDA are selling because of the ethical demands of Muslims, its to do with ASDA believing that they have demand and they have decided to supply to earn REVENUE. And that is what any successful business would do. Just as almost every corner shop started selling Polish food since they saw the customers around them.
3- Why it is allowed in EU. It is even more simpler. EU do not want bad relations with either Muslims or Jews as they do have a say in the world economy. So again EU are thinking as businesses do.
Most organic chickens/rabbit/poultry are killed by having their necks pulled snapping vertabrae or shot.
Ritual killing by severing the jugular is as instant as stunning. Abattoirs distress animals as they smell & sense death, not so with the ritual death for halal & kosher; (bleeding the corpse).
Livestock are farmed for food the their fate is no worse than fish/shellfish etc. Livestock supplimentary feed (other than grass) is DEFRA approved.
Ritual killing by severing the jugular is as instant as stunning. Abattoirs distress animals as they smell & sense death, not so with the ritual death for halal & kosher; (bleeding the corpse).
Livestock are farmed for food the their fate is no worse than fish/shellfish etc. Livestock supplimentary feed (other than grass) is DEFRA approved.
-- answer removed --
///If people come to this country, they should eat our food the way we chose to slaughter it and i don't want to go to a supermarket and eat meat from an animal that has been killed in such a way to please someone elses religion. ///
Are you happy with battery hens? Are you happy with veal? What about Fois Gras?
If someone wants to ban them (eg Jamie Oliver and Battery Hens), should he be allowed to campaign since he is British? Is it just foreigners who are not allowed to campaign?
Are you happy with battery hens? Are you happy with veal? What about Fois Gras?
If someone wants to ban them (eg Jamie Oliver and Battery Hens), should he be allowed to campaign since he is British? Is it just foreigners who are not allowed to campaign?
sp1814
Sorry I haven't put in such a way for you to understand. I woll have to use some passages from flip_flop's post to try and put it clearer.
///I don't particularly care how an animal has been killed, just so long as it tastes nice.////
substtute, I don't particularly care WHY an animal has been killed, just so long as it's FURr makes a lovely warm coat.
////Just to anger people even more, I love Veal, Calves liver and, as a special treat, Fois Gras (and yes, I am aware of la gavage).///
Substitute: Just to anger people more even, I love fox hunting, grouse shooting etc while wearing my real fur lined jacket.
I hope this explains things better, it's all a matter of the individuals choices, some are for others against, and they have every right to voice them, not just the one's that are PC.
Incidentally what are your views on these flip_flop
Sorry I haven't put in such a way for you to understand. I woll have to use some passages from flip_flop's post to try and put it clearer.
///I don't particularly care how an animal has been killed, just so long as it tastes nice.////
substtute, I don't particularly care WHY an animal has been killed, just so long as it's FURr makes a lovely warm coat.
////Just to anger people even more, I love Veal, Calves liver and, as a special treat, Fois Gras (and yes, I am aware of la gavage).///
Substitute: Just to anger people more even, I love fox hunting, grouse shooting etc while wearing my real fur lined jacket.
I hope this explains things better, it's all a matter of the individuals choices, some are for others against, and they have every right to voice them, not just the one's that are PC.
Incidentally what are your views on these flip_flop
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