Business & Finance30 mins ago
Is God really there?
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This follows on from a conversation with Lonnie. So many people the world over are praying for the safe return of the little girl abducted in Portugal. If God really exists and if he does personally take care of us, couldn't he at least have put a handy brick in the culprit's path ensuring that he'd trip and break a leg to prevent him from carrying out his plan to take her? I don't say hit him with a bolt of lightening - just a relatively minor accident would have been enough to keep her safe. Men may have free will, but little children are completely helpless against adults, so where was God when this happened - and why wasn't he looking out for this poor little mite?
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Mani said - 'Yes of course there is freewill in heaven but freewill does not necessarily lead to suffering. In heaven will be cleansed of our sin and our bad intentions which lead us to use our freewill for that which is wrong.'
And then he said - 'I know your next question will be why didn't God make man so he couldn't sin? He could have but if he had done so we would be robots and not human beings. Would you like your child to say "I love you" every time you pull a string in it's back. This would not even be love because love has to be voluntary.'
I hate to point out the obvious but, aside from your contradiction, why not just do the sin and bad intention cleansing here on earth? Why wait until we're dead?
And then he said - 'I know your next question will be why didn't God make man so he couldn't sin? He could have but if he had done so we would be robots and not human beings. Would you like your child to say "I love you" every time you pull a string in it's back. This would not even be love because love has to be voluntary.'
I hate to point out the obvious but, aside from your contradiction, why not just do the sin and bad intention cleansing here on earth? Why wait until we're dead?
From my understanding God made everything, has control of everything and is capable of doing whatever he chooses. If you believe that, then it follows that logically he is also responsible for everything.
The biblical God wants glorification, he needs to be worshipped and he demands obedience, but he doesn't want to shoulder the blame for anything, even though he has total control. So what's the answer? It seems he has a handy get-out clause tucked up his sleeve. Luckily he gave men free will, so nothing is god's fault. Not a bad position to be in is it? In total control, but actually responsible for nothing - and in reality controlling nothing - except his loyal followers.
Would the abductor's free will have been compromised if god had engineered a slight accident to keep that child safe? I don't think so. The thought and the intention would still have remained, but with a broken leg it would have been a little more difficult to abscond with her.
Can you imagine how afraid that little girl must be? She's four years old - just a baby. Where is this promised love and compassion for her - and where is the answer to all those prayers? Still, you never know, once the culprit's caught, perhaps god will finally prove he's not leading you all up the garden path by showing him the promised forgiveness. Criminals usually receive greater mercy than they've shown their victims.
Seems to me god's not only lacking in love and compassion - he's totally devoid of common sense too. What an enormous lie this whole thing is.
The biblical God wants glorification, he needs to be worshipped and he demands obedience, but he doesn't want to shoulder the blame for anything, even though he has total control. So what's the answer? It seems he has a handy get-out clause tucked up his sleeve. Luckily he gave men free will, so nothing is god's fault. Not a bad position to be in is it? In total control, but actually responsible for nothing - and in reality controlling nothing - except his loyal followers.
Would the abductor's free will have been compromised if god had engineered a slight accident to keep that child safe? I don't think so. The thought and the intention would still have remained, but with a broken leg it would have been a little more difficult to abscond with her.
Can you imagine how afraid that little girl must be? She's four years old - just a baby. Where is this promised love and compassion for her - and where is the answer to all those prayers? Still, you never know, once the culprit's caught, perhaps god will finally prove he's not leading you all up the garden path by showing him the promised forgiveness. Criminals usually receive greater mercy than they've shown their victims.
Seems to me god's not only lacking in love and compassion - he's totally devoid of common sense too. What an enormous lie this whole thing is.
Naomi, i agree totally with you. The pain that girl and her parents must be going through I dread to imagine and I agree with the other posters, there are a great many questions I would love to know the answer about.
I must say I don't know how God would do it any differently though. Yes He could've done the cleansing stuff on Earth, but I think he probably wanted to do the cleansing and move the clean stuff to a separate place so it didn't get dirty again.
About Christians using "freewill is from man" gives God a get-out clause... I do not know. I am sure God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that I simply cannot understand. The bible says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23) - why does this mean little babies must suffer for things they have not done? I simply do not know. All i know is that we must trust God who knows the beginning and the end of the big picture.
I must say I don't know how God would do it any differently though. Yes He could've done the cleansing stuff on Earth, but I think he probably wanted to do the cleansing and move the clean stuff to a separate place so it didn't get dirty again.
About Christians using "freewill is from man" gives God a get-out clause... I do not know. I am sure God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that I simply cannot understand. The bible says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23) - why does this mean little babies must suffer for things they have not done? I simply do not know. All i know is that we must trust God who knows the beginning and the end of the big picture.
Simon, at least you're honest enough to say you don't know why the biblical god allows these things to happen, but why anyone should trust him is beyond me - especially bearing in mind his horrendous history of cruelty (if you believe the bible which I presume you do). What has he ever done to merit trust? Nothing as far as I can see. We certainly can't rely on him in a crisis - and whilst we have no proof of his existence, we do have proof of that.
The books of the Bible are essentially incomplete. There are many other chapters which were not included for various reasons. In my view, the Bible was written by misogynistic, opinionated and worried men. It is contradictory and at best novel-like. I say this as someone who has studied the Bible and 'tried' to be Christian in it's most active sense.
Maybe there is no God as we 'know 'him..Maybe we are re-incarnating souls who decide upon our fate before we 'come back' again. Maybe terrible things that happen are for the 'benefit' and life lessons of others around us and not for the person on whom the crime is committed. Perhaps we choose something really bad to happen to us because we did something really bad to someone else in a previous life and we need to learn from the experience in the here and now. Perhaps this is all aload of rubbish but it's just as fanciful as The God theory, with actually more sense to it.
Or perhaps we live here...then we die...and what else happens in the interim is purely chance, circumstance and luck?
Maybe there is no God as we 'know 'him..Maybe we are re-incarnating souls who decide upon our fate before we 'come back' again. Maybe terrible things that happen are for the 'benefit' and life lessons of others around us and not for the person on whom the crime is committed. Perhaps we choose something really bad to happen to us because we did something really bad to someone else in a previous life and we need to learn from the experience in the here and now. Perhaps this is all aload of rubbish but it's just as fanciful as The God theory, with actually more sense to it.
Or perhaps we live here...then we die...and what else happens in the interim is purely chance, circumstance and luck?
Hi naomi,
My heart goes out to Maddie, and all her family, I have no problem at all with adults being cruel to adults, but when it comes to the innocents in life, Children, animals etc, then look at the past, let alone the present, at what went on, the Mongols, Crusaders, Hitler. I know i'm talking in hindsight, but when the Jews went into the gas chamber, it was not unknown for them to say 'its the will of God'
I mentioned this before, God, the God of Christians Muslims and Jews, a creation of Sunstroke and imagination, believed by the gullible, and used by the few to control the many.
My heart goes out to Maddie, and all her family, I have no problem at all with adults being cruel to adults, but when it comes to the innocents in life, Children, animals etc, then look at the past, let alone the present, at what went on, the Mongols, Crusaders, Hitler. I know i'm talking in hindsight, but when the Jews went into the gas chamber, it was not unknown for them to say 'its the will of God'
I mentioned this before, God, the God of Christians Muslims and Jews, a creation of Sunstroke and imagination, believed by the gullible, and used by the few to control the many.
So it really is as simple as ' the credit for good things goes to God and the responsibility for bad things resides with Man' ?
If so, can Man ever be Good; and more importantly can God ever be Bad ?
I suppose the stock answer will be that Man is ONLY Good because God made him so, and if God is ever Bad, it is because Man has made him so.
He's petulant with a bit of a temper, then, and lashes out at other people, usually those less able to defend themselves. He's a bully of the first order, too.
If so, can Man ever be Good; and more importantly can God ever be Bad ?
I suppose the stock answer will be that Man is ONLY Good because God made him so, and if God is ever Bad, it is because Man has made him so.
He's petulant with a bit of a temper, then, and lashes out at other people, usually those less able to defend themselves. He's a bully of the first order, too.
I hope you don't mind me butting in your thread, I just had to thank you for putting into words exactly what I was thinking Naomi24. If there is a God (I used to be a firm believer for many years but now I'm disillusioned) then he has messed up big time with the creation of the human race. It has all gone disastrously wrong. There is no justification in heaven, on earth or in so called hell's fires for the unspeakable suffering of even one innocent child. God knows what terror poor Madeleine has suffered or is suffering and if he has the power to stop it and doesn't then he is just as guilty as the evil person who has taken her.
If she's still alive, poor Madeleine is suffering, and we know that her parents and the rest of her family are suffering. The posters on here are suffering just trying to imagine the sheer horror of it all. It brings back memories of James Bulger.
We, as Christians, join you other posters, in sharing in that suffering, and empathising with the unimaginable torment. None of us can look at our own children and grandchildren in the same light anymore whilst this evil scenario is played out.
We, as Christians, are not immune to the very real agony and hand wringing that all of you are feeling right now, every time a news bulletin comes on.
The only difference between us, is our belief, and my belief in a God, who is not responsible for this tragedy, but a God who shares in our grief at the manifestation of such evil on such innocence.
We, as Christians, join you other posters, in sharing in that suffering, and empathising with the unimaginable torment. None of us can look at our own children and grandchildren in the same light anymore whilst this evil scenario is played out.
We, as Christians, are not immune to the very real agony and hand wringing that all of you are feeling right now, every time a news bulletin comes on.
The only difference between us, is our belief, and my belief in a God, who is not responsible for this tragedy, but a God who shares in our grief at the manifestation of such evil on such innocence.
Theland, words mean absolutely nothing - and there's no point in you telling us he's sharing our grief - that does no good at all. Thinking that he's sharing your grief might help you and make you feel better, but It doesn't stop that little child being afraid and possibly being hurt does it, and, let's remember, she's the important one in all this - not us. Why didn't god do something practical just or a change? Wouldn't it have been so easy for him to put that brick in that person's path, but he didn't, did he? He did absolutely nothing to help her, and he's doing absolutely nothing to help those who are trying to find her. And Christians wonder why people don't believe. Not difficult is it?!
Sorry Theland, don't mean to nag you the minute you're back, but this sort of thing really makes me mad.
Going to bed now. Speak to you tomorrow. Night, night - sleep tight.
Sorry Theland, don't mean to nag you the minute you're back, but this sort of thing really makes me mad.
Going to bed now. Speak to you tomorrow. Night, night - sleep tight.
To try and offer a defence of God makes Christians out to be somehow uncaring of this incredible evil. As you said, Naomi, it makes you mad.
But what makes you mad? Madeleines plight, obviously, but also the apparent disinterest of the God in whom you don't believe?
Or is it the fact that I and others like me, continue to believe in this God, even in the face of unspeakable evil?
Platitudes won't help, and I won't offer any, but I refuse to believe that whatever the outcome, evil will have triumphed.
So, I live in hope, hope for Madeleine, and hope for us all, which is the basis of faith.
Your anger Naomi, is well justified, and will always be justified so long as there is evil in the world, but to deny God, at least for ME to deny God, is to give up hope, and I cannot do that.
But what makes you mad? Madeleines plight, obviously, but also the apparent disinterest of the God in whom you don't believe?
Or is it the fact that I and others like me, continue to believe in this God, even in the face of unspeakable evil?
Platitudes won't help, and I won't offer any, but I refuse to believe that whatever the outcome, evil will have triumphed.
So, I live in hope, hope for Madeleine, and hope for us all, which is the basis of faith.
Your anger Naomi, is well justified, and will always be justified so long as there is evil in the world, but to deny God, at least for ME to deny God, is to give up hope, and I cannot do that.
I believe God is there in people, but not in person.
To me, God is something more like a force than a person. "God is Love" makes sense to me, and because that's more or less how I view God, I don't see recent events as being the fault of God.
To me, to blame God or doubt the existence or power of God is to blame the force of love, which doesn't seem right, even if that force isn't always strong enough to avert suffering.
To me, God is something more like a force than a person. "God is Love" makes sense to me, and because that's more or less how I view God, I don't see recent events as being the fault of God.
To me, to blame God or doubt the existence or power of God is to blame the force of love, which doesn't seem right, even if that force isn't always strong enough to avert suffering.
Theland, whatever the outcome you will refuse to believe that evil has triumphed? If she's been abused or murdered you could hardly say good has triumphed could you? You asked what makes me mad. Well, precisely statements like that, or you telling me that your god is sharing our grief - as if that helps! It makes you feel better - that's all.
I've never denied the existence of god - but as you know Theland, my god is very far removed from yours.
Tell-me-more: I'm with you on that - except that I don't believe 'it' and the biblical god are one and the same. Do you?
Romeo: you're talking about the biblical god too. No, I wouldn't believe in him. There is no reason to believe in him.
I've never denied the existence of god - but as you know Theland, my god is very far removed from yours.
Tell-me-more: I'm with you on that - except that I don't believe 'it' and the biblical god are one and the same. Do you?
Romeo: you're talking about the biblical god too. No, I wouldn't believe in him. There is no reason to believe in him.
Us non- or different-believers fully accept that there are cruel, sadistic and selfish individuals who will with, either malice aforethought or no great thought cause hurt, harm and distress to others and delight in doing so.
We accept that however aberrant this behaviour there always have been and always will be human beings born who behave in anti-social ways.
We also accept that there are a great number of undeserving people who will fall prey to these 'monsters'.
Because we endeavour to be rational it is quite beyond us to conceive just where God fits into a scenario such as Maddie's.
I believe that a bad person (and this probably isn't the first time they have been bad) stole a small innocent girl for his/her own reasons. That I can accept. I would really rather that I didn't have to, but.........
To try and crow-bar in fatuous reasoning '......it's all part of Gods great plan', ' .....he can't interfere because that's the slippery slope to the removal of free-will' is galling because it is arrant nonsense. The entire situation is really too distressing to be bound up in circular reasoning and nonsensical platitudes.
Could any of the Christians please give examples of where, after the fact, it became clear what God had intended in similar circumstances. I really would be fascinated to know !
We accept that however aberrant this behaviour there always have been and always will be human beings born who behave in anti-social ways.
We also accept that there are a great number of undeserving people who will fall prey to these 'monsters'.
Because we endeavour to be rational it is quite beyond us to conceive just where God fits into a scenario such as Maddie's.
I believe that a bad person (and this probably isn't the first time they have been bad) stole a small innocent girl for his/her own reasons. That I can accept. I would really rather that I didn't have to, but.........
To try and crow-bar in fatuous reasoning '......it's all part of Gods great plan', ' .....he can't interfere because that's the slippery slope to the removal of free-will' is galling because it is arrant nonsense. The entire situation is really too distressing to be bound up in circular reasoning and nonsensical platitudes.
Could any of the Christians please give examples of where, after the fact, it became clear what God had intended in similar circumstances. I really would be fascinated to know !
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